Learning to dovetail

[user 40242]

Hi, I want to move my woodworking skills on from turning, and I want to try some dovetail joints. What's a reasonably priced saw to start with? Would something like this be a reasonable tool for a beginner? Happy to pay more if necessary if there is a definite benefit.

Thanks.

 

[Spectric]

Depends on how much effort you want to exert, if you want an easy time making dovetails then pick up a woodrat. If wanting to handsaw then I would agree that going japanese is probably easier than a western saw but look at Niwaki Dozuki Saw and even give them a ring for advice.

 

[Ollie78]

I would recommend a Japanese saw as well, they are pretty cheap and very sharp.
Strictly speaking you should use rip pattern teeth but the universal ones are fine.
Good dovetails are all about accurate marking, I made a little alignment board years ago which goes in the vice, look up David Barron alignment board. It's very useful.
If you want to "cheat" a bit then the katz moses magnetic guides or the David Barron ones both work very well.
I do tails first, but there is a debate about this.
It's mainly practice.

Ollie

 

[rogxwhit]

You could find that Japanese saws are an acquired taste, and personally I've always preferred the European pattern that have a set and are easily resharpenable. A tool that lasts (beyond) your lifetime becomes a sort of friend.

You haven't said what size of dovetails you're on about, but this might fit the bill -

https://www.axminstertools.com/axminster-benchcraft-tenon-saw-250mm-12tpi-225903
There is one basic skill at the heart of dovetail making by hand, and it's the simple one common to many tasks of being able to cut to a line. Conquer that and any mystique evaporates.

 

[Jacob]

No particular advantage in 0.3mm thin kerf. The normal S&J DT saw is only 0.5mm anyway. £10 or so second hand or £30 ish new. Say 15 tpi
For bigger DTs (thicker wood) a bigger normal average tenon saw is better. Say 12 tpi

 

[user 40242]

Thanks all. Good information.

@Spectric Definitely want to do this by hand. There's great pleasure (for me at least) in the journey rather than the destination.

@Ollie78 Thanks. Adding some guides to my shopping list.

@rogxwhit At my age most tools will outlive me. Adding the Axminster tenon saw to my shortlist.

@Jacob Excuse my ignorance - S&J?

Edit>> Spear and Jackson. Duh! Thanks Jacob.

 

[Jacob]

....

@Jacob Excuse my ignorance - S&J?

Spear & Jackson

 

[Spectric]

I find the cutting action on the pull gives me more precision with my cuts, plus I like the simple handle, light weight construction with that much finer blade that you cannot have with a push cut action.

 

[rogxwhit]

So it seems that there are two camps - the pushers and the pullers. To know the difference you're going to have to buy two saws! Sigh.

 

[Jacob]

Nice one here with plenty of blade left
Vintage Spear &Jackson S&J No 52 Leapfrog Brass Backed Dovetail Saw 8" | eBay

Search for Spear & Jackson 8" dovetail saw

 

[thetyreman]

I definitely do not recommend a japanese saw for dovetailing, use a western saw, far easier, and learn how to sharpen and set it up as well, don't get one of those nasty hardpoint saws, you can't sharpen them, a decent western dovetail saw will last you a lifetime. It's a good idea for a first project to make a pair of sawhorses, and then a workbench as the second.

 

[thetyreman]

the problem with the japanese saws is often how long the handle is, they were designed to be used in carpentry and japanese house and shrine building where they are low down on the floor with their own much lower saw horses and workbenches.

 

[thetyreman]

you can make a dovetail template easily and cheaply, I use this to mark out the dovetails but cut them freehand with no gadgets or 'guides' helping me, it all comes from muscle memory and learning to follow the line, just takes practise and a willingness to make mistakes at the start, if you use a guide it's like riding a bike with stabilisers.

 

[Spectric]

the pushers and the pullers

Does a horse pull the cart or push it!

 

[rogxwhit]

a decent western dovetail saw

That could be something of a red herring, because most dovetails can be cut most efficiently with a tenon saw. The so-called dovetail saw has tiny fiddly teeth that are a pain to sharpen and because they're so small take forever to make a cut. The larger tenon saw, with bigger teeth and a wider set, is actually easier to control. So I say tenon saw.

 

[rogxwhit]

Does a horse pull the cart or push it!

It pushes it when it's being backed. Whoah.

 

[Jacob]

That could be something of a red herring, because most dovetails can be cut most efficiently with a tenon saw. The so-called dovetail saw has tiny fiddly teeth that are a pain to sharpen and because they're so small take forever to make a cut. The larger tenon saw, with bigger teeth and a wider set, is actually easier to control. So I say tenon saw.

15 tpi is good for thin drawer sides ( say 12mm softwood) and 8" DT saw better IMHO.
Though yes to any old tenon saw as you go up in thickness and hardness

 

[user 40242]

you're going to have to buy two saws! Sigh.

Oh no!

 

[thetyreman]

That could be something of a red herring, because most dovetails can be cut most efficiently with a tenon saw. The so-called dovetail saw has tiny fiddly teeth that are a pain to sharpen and because they're so small take forever to make a cut. The larger tenon saw, with bigger teeth and a wider set, is actually easier to control. So I say tenon saw.

yes I agree, my main 'dovetail' saw is actually a 14tpi 10 inch tenon saw, spear and jackson, cost almost nothing second hand on ebay, it needed sharpening up but other than that it's been a great saw it's nice to have a finer dovetail saw but not really critical, you can also use it for tenons too so very useful.

 

[IWW]

More gets written on dovetails than any other topic in woodworking, but you can boil it down to one simple word - "practice".

I don't think it matters a hoot whether you use push or pull saws, as long as you can use the thing to cut accurately. Start with one or the other & stick with it 'til you can.

Tooth pitch is somewhat secondary, though beginners will find a finer-toothed saw easier to start. There is an old 'rule of thumb' that you should have at least 5 teeth in the cut to prevent the saw from 'digging in'. If the teeth are too fine they may fill with sawdust in wider cuts which slows the pace & can also cause the saw to go off-line. I would recommend ~15tpi for typical furniture work (boards 12-25mm thick) - a practiced sawyer can easily get away with a coarser pitch, for e.g., 12 tpi is ok for a 12mm board, but you are likely to get a bit more "blow-out" with more fissile woods and beginners usually find finer pitches easier to start.

I recommend a minimum blade length of 200mm (8") for a comfortable stroke, 225 or 250 is probably better for people of average arm-length. My own absolute favourite for furniture-scale work is a 225mm, 15tpi with a relatively light spine:

Using this is like driving a sports car compared to the "lorry" of a heavy saw. (For some reason that I've never been able to discover, old British saws tended to have much heavier spines than American equivalents). For dovetailing, where you want to flip left & right to cut tails from the one side (which takes quite a bit of practice to do accurately!), light is good..

The only "secrets" to good d'tailing are accurate layout and precise cutting. The former is quite easy, the latter may take you some time to master. For the average weekend warrior, reckon on at least a couple of years before you can nonchalantly dash-off water-tight dovetails (almost) every time....
Cheers,
Ian