LAS - can anyone help?

[promhandicam]

As some may have read I've just aquired a Veritas Low Angle Smoother plane. After setting it up last night I've been trying it out today on some Afromosia / Teak boards which I was having trouble planing with my old stanley 4 1/2. I have to say that I'm disapointed with it and assume that I must be doing something wrong. I bought 2 spare irons and have been trying mainly with the 38deg and the 50deg. Both of then I have tried to hone as best I can although I don't have a waterstone. I do however have the veritas sharpening system and have tried honing on both a fine oil stone that I have flattened and also a la Scary Sharp using a piece of 1200 wet and dry - the finest I can find here. FWIW I have a 1000/6000 water stone on order which should hopefully help with the final finish when I am honing

I'd therefore like to ask ideally, if there is anyone in the SE London / Surrey area who has an LAS who'd be willing to give up 1 hour in around 3 weeks time to help me try and figure out what I'm doing wrong. I'm going to be in the UK for a couple of days and so thought that I could bring with me the two irons (I don't really want to have to bring the whole plane) plus a piece or two of the wood I'm trying to plane (don't tell customs ) Perhaps you could send me a PM.

Any other words of wisdom would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Steve

 

[Jake]

What's going wrong?

My LAJ and BUS worked out of the box, no honing or anything (impatient, me).

 

[promhandicam]

Hi Jake. thanks for the prompt response. the problem is tearout. I'll try and post a picture tomorrow although I'm not sure how clearly I can show it. I did initially try using the irons from the packet and only resorted to honing them as I didn't know what else to do. Basically all I've done is put a very small micro bevel on them and polished about 6mm of the back a bit. I've tried planing in both directions ie. with and against the grain - nada. I've tried planing some narrower material without any problem but on a 200mm wide board it is impossible. I've had to resort to using a card scraper which incidentally I've found works fine just honed at 90deg - no raising a bur - and it produces shavings not dust. :?

Steve

 

[JesseM]

I recently acquired a LV BUS as well, and have tried both the 38 and 50 blades with bubinga that had some tearout. From the info on the LV website they claim that the 50 (62 cutting angle) completely eliminates tearout. I had great luck with removing my tearout with the 50, but the blade definitely needs to be sharp. After sharpening are you able to shave with it? Do the hairs jump off your arm ? The combination of high angle and hard wood also dulls the blade pretty quick. Being new to this myself getting stuff sharp is definitely a hurdle to getting good results.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Steve

Part - perhaps most - of your problem is that you have only honed to 1200 W&D. That is for most still considered to be at a grinding level. You would need to be closer to 1500, ideally 2000 W&D to get "sharp".

While waiting for the waterstone to arrive, try honing the blade on Veritas green rouge (looks like a crayon) or, if you cannot get this, smear some Autosol onto a piece of folat hardwood or MDF and hone on that. Both should be an improvement on what you have.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Waka]

Steve

I agree with Derek, when I use the "scary" method I take is down to 2500 and find that I get a blade sharp enough to shave with.

 

[Philly]

Steve
I'm in Dorset but you are very welcome to call by if you want. I have a LA Smoother and would be happy to help out. PM me if interested.
Philly

 

[promhandicam]

Well I've continued to experiment today but without much success - other than getting a blister in teh palm of my left hand. I've honed the blades as best I can and have managed to produce some fine full length full width shavings on some 20 mm wide scrap wood of the same variety that I'm using for the panels.

This was done with the 38deg iron. However using the exact same setting on the panel still resulted in tear out - Not easy to ilustrate but there is an area between the 30mm and 40mm marks.

I either get no shavings or the iron seems to dig in or I get some shavings but still not perfect. I'll have to try and see what I can find locally for honing to a better finish. the water stone should be here in 2 weeks when SWMBO returns,but I'd wanted to get teh piece finished before then

Thanks for your support,

Steve

 

[mr]

How wide open is the mouth? Ive found with the LA jack a wide open mouth can result in tear out as shown in your pic but close the mouth up and its much better, if not cured, depending on the type of wood. Sorry if that sounds like an obvious fix, you've probably tried that already - I'll get me coat.
Cheers Mike

 

[promhandicam]

Thanks for the advice about the mouth but I have tried to keep the opening as tight as possible - a couple of mm max. Iactually closed it up too much at one point and advanced the iron into the toe so that I had to re-hone :evil:

Steve

 

[MooreToolsPlease]

a couple of mm sounds like a reasonably wide opening for a 0.05mm shaving to pass through?
A couple of tips I have picked up along the way is to put on a coat of shellac over the problem area, seems to stiffen the fibres. enough so they can be planed smoothly.

 

[paulm]

Some good ideas from Matt.

For fine shavings would probably have the mouth closed down to 0.5mm or less in front of the blade. If the 2mm you mention is in front of the blade then it's way too much and this should make a big difference.

Likewise, if no shellac to hand then sanding sealer or similar might do the trick.

If only small and occasional patches of slight tearout after all that, then card scrapers may be the best way to deal with them.

Cheers, Paul.

 

[promhandicam]

Just a quick note to update you on the days play. After doing some experiments I found an old oil stone that seemed to give the finest finish - i.e. it took the longest to actually be able to see that it had done anything. I then cleaned this stone up using this technique which revealed a golden/orange coloured stone. I then flattened it - firstly with sand on a piece of mdf and then 120 grit sandpaper. I then re honed the 38deg iron using the scary sharp method up to 1500 grit W&D and then I added a 2 degree micro bevel with the 1500 and finishing off on the newly refurbished oil stone lubricated with WD40. I then carefully set the plane back up making the mouth opening as tight as possible.

With this set up I was able to produce full width shavings that I measured at about 0.002" on my very-near calipers. I've not tried to plane one of the boards yet but I'm a lot more confident than 24 hours ago that I'm going to get this cracked.

Lessons learnt:

1. There is a big difference between sharp and razor sharp - the latter what appears to be necessary for what I am trying to do. The ability to easily hone to a razor sharp edge will be a big factor in producing a consistently fine finish.
2. Care in setting up the plane. I've only ever used bog standard planes before and so haven't expected to be able to get a very good finish. The extra time set in getting everything spot on makes all the difference, particularly for example in aligning the blade - making sure it isn't skewed.
3. The veritas sharpening system (not the mkII) should have a big lable on it saying 'Not intended for high angle bevels'. I know there is an instruction about making up spacers but if they are needed why aren't they provided? I've also read recently of a mod that Derek Cohen did on the jig which was to add an aluminium strip to one side to help align the plane iron and ensure it is square - this seems to be a good suggestion and one that I will have to try and follow up on. (sorry can't remember where I read this gem now). In conclusion I should have gone with my heart and and with my head, and spent the extra and got the mkII but I'd already spent quite a lot. Ho hum - something for the 2007 christmas list. :wink:
4. Finally don't despair! Within the space of 24 hours I had a lot of helpful suggestions and a couple of offers of personal help back in the UK. Thanks a lot guys - I'm not sure you realise how much it means to someone like me.

Have a good week everyone,

Steve

 

[engineer one]

is it only me or do i also get some idea that you were trying to get too thick shavings????

i am sure i read somewhere that to get a decent finish on some woods, you
need to have a VERRRRY fine set of the blade. :roll:

paul :wink:

 

[promhandicam]

is it only me or do i also get some idea that you were trying to get too thick shavings????
paul :wink:

It could well be the case Paul, however I did try advancing the blade very slightly at a time an it went from not cutting at all to digging in :? Any ways, I seem to have it sussed now and hope that my (in)experience might help others who are starting out on the Slippery Slope.

All the best, Steve

 

[David C]

Paul is correct.

For elimination of tearout in difficult, interlocked grain timbers, a type 2 shaving is required. Bruce Hoadley's book specifically mentions a very thin chip/shaving. I find this means not much over 1 thousandth of an inch, or 1/4 of the thickness of a good quality piece of writing paper.

On some dense difficult timbers I find it necessary to raise effective pitch to 70 degrees. (Quartered Santos Rosewood and African Blackwood). This is not a very convenient honing angle on a 12 degree bedded plane, (58 degrees).

On really difficult timbers a 1 thou shavings may work while a 2 thou shaving may not.

I would also advise setting the mouth opening as close as possible, certainly no more than 0.3 mm or 12 thou", though the type 2 theory actually suggests that if the shaving is type two, mouth width has no impact whatever! This is something which can easily be tested with a low angle bevel up plane.

I would be very interested to hear whether users can confirm this mouth width theory?

David Charlesworth

 

[Anonymous]

Hi,

Just to clarify.....have you a camber on the blade?
I may have picked you up wrong but I am under the impression you are trying to get a full width shaving.

 

[engineer one]

actually, good point, should you have a cambered blade on a bevel up
plane, except at the very corners to relieve them??? :roll:

paul :wink:

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I would also advise setting the mouth opening as close as possible, certainly no more than 0.3 mm or 12 thou", though the type 2 theory actually suggests that if the shaving is type two, mouth width has no impact whatever! This is something which can easily be tested with a low angle bevel up plane.

I would be very interested to hear whether users can confirm this mouth width theory?

David

My observations are that, once the cutting angle gets to 60 degrees, the mouth size plays a small role. Once you get about 65 degrees, it plays even less a role.

That said, this information comes from using planes that are set up for high cutting angles, and this group tend to be better performers anyway. The question that must be asked is what other factors are involved here? For example, on the Marcou S15 smoother (which does not have a "really" tight mouth - certainly larger than some of my other highish-end smoothers), with a cutting angle of 60 degrees, this plane is amazing, far outstripping the other planes with similar (and even higher) cutting angles.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[David C]

Derek,

Thank you.

Same set up with Holtey 98.

Although mouth width theoretically has no function here, might a narrow setting provide some protection if a thicker shaving was inadvertantly set?

I feel the 20ish degree bedding angle is more suitable for high angle EP and type 2 shavings, as the bed is stiffer and the sharpening angles more convenient.

If one wanted to build a bevel up plane dedicated entirely to fine finishing of impossible woods one might wish to experiment experiment with a 30 degree bed? A home made Krenov or Gordon style plane like this might be an interesting experiment...........

best wishes,
David