Laminated softwood bench tops.

[Phil Pascoe]

Slightly off-topic, but a related question: In a bench with an underframe supporting the top (for example, Chris Schwarz's "Nicholson" and I suspect Richard Maguire's "Empire"), how is movement of the top dealt with? In my own bench the top is fixed at the front, and any movement is absorbed by the tool well.

I think it'd be a problem. A well makes it easy to just whip off a few mm to bring the beam or beams into line. If I was going to join massive timbers like Mr Maguire's I'd do it the easy way with steel rod through with nuts on threaded ends. You could then tighten/loosen or separate the pieces for planing, if necessary.

That was my thought - I'd just run stainless threaded bar through, and save an awful lot of work!

Phil.

 

[Jacob]

.....to the middle of the bench where there is a gap for a flip stop. ....

Richard

Didn't know it was called a 'flip stop'. You can do similar with a well - one or two loose pieces of 3x2 across the width of the well but sticking up as a stop. Then if the well is 2" or more you can turn the 3x2 sideways and out of the way.

 

[bugbear]

It seems that a lot of people want almost anything rather than the traditional bench

The "dream" benches being discussed appear to be traditional benches - but German traditional benches.

BugBear

 

[matthewwh]

Interesting, I found the well on my bench more trouble than it was worth and filled most of it in. If I were starting from scratch I would go for a left handed bench (even though I'm right handed) as I like to work on the right hand end of the front vice, my ultimate bench would weigh an absolute ton because it's a non-portable fixed object for attaching things to when you don't want them to move - why risk getting anywhere even close to the flimsy end of the spectrum?

There are so many wonderful variations available when it comes to benches, trying to be prescriptive about what others should have is as ridiculous as calling for all other flavours of ice cream to be banned because you only like mint choc chip.

 

[Paul Chapman]

There are so many wonderful variations available when it comes to benches, trying to be prescriptive about what others should have is as ridiculous as calling for all other flavours of ice cream to be banned because you only like mint choc chip.

Well said =D>

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Mr Maguire]

Threaded bar is a great point to bring up is you're considering reinforcing a bench top. Take a look at the Shaker benches and you'll see that many adopted a similar method with great success. There is an issue if you are joining a wide top probably more than 18" as in my experience expansion makes the top inclined to cup because its being held firm from both ends. The difference with the pegged tenons is that they only hold at the edge of the joins and so allow each of the slabs to independently expand and contract whilst the glue line is forced tight. There are only two joins in the oak top so the tenons were very plausible and this bench is based on a simple but clever French design that uses contraction in the top to strength the bench over time, in the majority of benches pegged tenons would certainly not be necessary. Paul Seller's design uses two narrower slabs for the top (I think) so if you were concerned about reinforcing the glue line then the threaded bar would be preferable as the slabs aren't wide and there are multiple staves. Using threaded bar can be deceitfully challenging though so it would come down to the skill and equipment etc as to whether it was considered necessary.
Richard

 

[Jacob]

....
There are so many wonderful variations available when it comes to benches,

Hmm, only on the fringe - the basic Brit bench is very common and just about "standard". Not fashionable though. Too much fashion in woodwork nowadays. Aprons going up and down like hem-lines.

trying to be prescriptive about what others should have is as ridiculous as calling for all other flavours of ice cream to be banned because you only like mint choc chip.

Nobody is calling for bans (yet, at any rate!). What's wrong with being prescriptive? Nobody has to take any notice if they don't want to. I certainly don't!

 

[Jacob]

..... Using threaded bar can be deceitfully challenging ....
Richard

Not really, it's dead simple. The hole for the bar can be a square mortice or round drilled hole, well oversize and not necessarily accurate as long as the bar can be threaded through. Then it is closed off at each end either by a plate, or by finishing the mortice on the outer edges with a round hole the diameter of the bar. A loose fit for easy alignment of the pieces, which could also have stub tenons for location purposes if required.

 

[wcndave]

The hole for the bar can be a square mortice or round drilled hole, well oversize and not necessarily accurate as long as the bar can be threaded through. Then it is closed off at each end either by a plate, or by finishing the mortice on the outer edges with a round hole the diameter of the bar. A loose fit for easy alignment of the pieces, which could also have stub tenons for location purposes if required.

Sounds complicated to me, not everyone find everything so obvious and easy as certain people...

what the hell was this post about in the first place :?:

 

[bugbear]

The hole for the bar can be a square mortice or round drilled hole, well oversize and not necessarily accurate as long as the bar can be threaded through. Then it is closed off at each end either by a plate, or by finishing the mortice on the outer edges with a round hole the diameter of the bar. A loose fit for easy alignment of the pieces, which could also have stub tenons for location purposes if required.

Sounds complicated to me, not everyone find everything so obvious and easy as certain people...

I think Mr Maguire (who makes benches "professionally") was talking about the surprisingly complex consequences of the technique, not the (fairly simple) fitting of the bar, which comes down to "drill a big enough hole, use nuts on both ends"

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

....
I think Mr Maguire (who makes benches "professionally") was talking about the surprisingly complex consequences of the technique,

What would they be then?

not the (fairly simple) fitting of the bar, which comes down to "drill a big enough hole, use nuts on both ends"

BugBear

Yes it is simple - but I have encountered the problem where someone has imagined that the hole needs to be a good fit along the whole length, like a M&T or a dowel in a short hole; the bar itself aligning the components. That would be difficult . A very tiny "lateral thinking" step was all that was needed

 

[Gerard Scanlan]

Meanwhile Paul Sellers forges ahead with his soft wood laminated bench
He will have no doubt finished it before the weekend.
More angles on poor mans routers too.
I think it is great.

 

[AndyT]

He does say he's made 100 of these benches - which is a lot more than I have!

I do think it's good for beginners to have something like his blog and videos where the solution to a problem is not always 'spend more money' but instead is 'get round it with the basic tools that you have already'.

That said, his assembly technique uses lots of expensive clamps. If I was making a glued up top like that as a penniless beginner, I'd be looking for methods that don't need clamps. Two spring to mind:

1 - add strips one at a time (or one on each side) with long screws to hold them down while the glue sets. Remove screws before adding the next strips, to avoid drilling into them later.

2 - use scrap timber, cross battens and folding wedges to make some simple sash clamp equivalents.

 

[Jacob]

He does say he's made 100 of these benches - which is a lot more than I have!
.....
That said, his assembly technique uses lots of expensive clamps. I......

Lemme think how many have I made, er, one! Mind you it's lasted well.
Cheap no-name clamps I thought. Expensive is Record etc. And he doesn't do any deliberate product placement in his book, though he can't avoid some names of course.

 

[wcndave]

I would have thought one would be better off going for something like this traditional bench, that I would have thought would be fit for purpose for every woodworker out there.

Not too expensive either!

http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/workshop/bench/below20xl.html

 

[AndyT]

I would have thought one would be better off going for something like this traditional bench, that I would have thought would be fit for purpose for every woodworker out there.

Not too expensive either!

http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/workshop/bench/below20xl.html

At the risk of going round in circles, that design might serve for someone using power tools but would be frustratingly unsuitable if you want a sturdy surface to plane on or chop mortices. "Woodwork" covers such a wide span of activities - shipbuilding, house carpentry, joinery, cabinet making, turning, carving, scrolling etc - so it's really no surprise that different sorts of woodwork need different tools and different benches!

 

[wcndave]

I would have thought one would be better off going for something like this traditional bench, that I would have thought would be fit for purpose for every woodworker out there.

At the risk of going round in circles, that design might serve for someone using power tools but would be frustratingly unsuitable if you want a sturdy surface to plane on or chop mortices. "Woodwork" covers such a wide span of activities - shipbuilding, house carpentry, joinery, cabinet making, turning, carving, scrolling etc - so it's really no surprise that different sorts of woodwork need different tools and different benches!

Please leave room for sarcasm ;-)

 

[AndyT]

Ooops!



Sorry Dave

 

[Cheshirechappie]

He does say he's made 100 of these benches - which is a lot more than I have!

I do think it's good for beginners to have something like his blog and videos where the solution to a problem is not always 'spend more money' but instead is 'get round it with the basic tools that you have already'.

That said, his assembly technique uses lots of expensive clamps. If I was making a glued up top like that as a penniless beginner, I'd be looking for methods that don't need clamps. Two spring to mind:

1 - add strips one at a time (or one on each side) with long screws to hold them down while the glue sets. Remove screws before adding the next strips, to avoid drilling into them later.

2 - use scrap timber, cross battens and folding wedges to make some simple sash clamp equivalents.

Oddly enough, method 2 is pretty much what I did when I built mine. No sash cramps then, and they were far more than I could afford. So I used some 3x1 with 1" holes placed strategically, one either side of the glue-up, and 1" dowels through the holes. A packer below and a pair of folding wedges above to apply the load. Must have been good enough, because the bench-top is still together twenty years on.

 

[GazPal]

I think the sash cramps Paul uses in his video are around £10 each and they're worth picking up if budget allows, but another option instead of buying fully assembled sash cramps is to invest in a few sets of cramp heads, so you're not limited by bar lengths, as bars can be made using scraps of timber of a length to suit the work in hand. :wink:

If a method works.... use it, as long as it proves the best option within your budget and provides the best possible results