kitting out a small shop!

[Juggler]

hi everyone, this is my first post on the forum. i've been here for about 2 weeks gaining knowledge from past topics and finally i need some help from all you tool and wood lovers!!
ok, basically i've decided it's time i got back into furniture making after spending 3 years at college and having acheived a level 2 city and guilds which never helped me get a job in the last 5 years!! i'm gonna try make it on my own and living with parents still i have no responsabilities.

i'm looking at buying a table saw, bandsaw, planer/thicknesser, morticer, and extractor.
i've been looking around and it seems to me there isn't a great deal of option when it comes to buying for a small workshop or light trade. the table saw i gathered would be best to go for (especially after reading posts about people buying it on here) is the record TSPP250 without the sliding table as that would end up way too big for the space i have, but without it suits my needs entirely.
now seeing that record have a winter promo on it forced me to work out how much i'd save on the 5 machine package deals and i found out that :-
BS300x bandsaw,
PT260x Planer/thicknesser,
TSPP250 Table saw (with support legs),
RPM75 morticer (with chisel set) and
RSDE2 extractor
all come in a nice neat package for £1,850. To buy these machines seperately it costs £1,950 hence only a saving of £100. with the winter promotion you can also get with this:-
Bandsaw DVD (£10)
3 bandsaw blades (£30)
Wheel kit for the T/S (£80) and
Cloth filter for extractor (£15)
which will only set me back £1,900. so that's only £50 more than the package deal and you save £175 if you were to buy individually.

Ok, enough money math! what i'm stuck on.... i already have a RSDE1 extractor which i found is fine for power tools so i don't need the RSDE2. The morticer priced at £150 is more than i was gonna invest, i was thinking more like £100. and the Bandsaw i have no idea about as i've also seen the Scheppach Basato 3 which looks a very nice machine with it's cast iron wheels and such. does anyone know which is better value for money??? If i was to buy all record machinery does anyone know if they would be persuaded to do a deal with me or does anyone think i'm crazy going for all record power machinery??? This is about the point where my brain scrambles up and fizzles out and i need to go lay down for an hour or so cos i can't make my mind up!! unfortunately i have to take my beloved to brighton for some new juggling equipment (hence the name juggler, i do that in my spare time away from the workshop!)
can someone please answer at least one of my confused questions and all advice on setting up shop first time will be welcome. my budget wants to stay at around £1800 but i know i'll go over it cos we all get carried away when i comes to new shiny things!!!
thanks for listenin, i'll be lookin forward to your views

Paul :? :lol:

 

[Lord Nibbo]

I have the BS350 bandsaw, I don't think you will have any problems with the 300.

I also have the 75 morticer but you will need to make a decent table/platform for it. I'll see if I can find a pic showing mine.

I also have the PT 260. The machine is fine and it does everything you would expect of it. But the fence is a load of junk or I should say the angle adjusting bracket is junk. I removed mine and fitted a 90deg fixed machined angle to it, it is now perfection but I can't alter the angle.

I'll let other comment on the other items you've listed, I expect it won't be long before you get replies

PS.... Welcome to the mad house

 

[PowerTool]

Welcome to the forum,Paul

Unfortunately,can't comment on any of your possible choices,but I am just about to upgrade to a Record lathe,as I think (backed up by what I have read) that Record stuff is generally good quality and seems to be designed to be able to upgrade/add on at a later stage.
Trying to convince myself I don't need a nice new green bandsaw as well (although very tempted :wink: )

Andrew

 

[NeilO]

Hi Juggler,
I actually own a BS 300, and cant fault it..
and I cant fault Record`s customer service ( read thread "Dangerous things/woodturning & lathes)
I also have RDES2 and some of Records hand tools, and to me they are of a good quality at a reasonable price.

I know a few members will possibly say brand X is better than Record, and brand Y is better than brand X, and to some extent I would agree, but I`m NOT woodworking for a Living, purely as a hobby, and record stuff is within my budget/needs at the right price.

as they say "you pays your money and takes your choice."

 

[Scrit]

Hi Juggler and welcome to the forum!

Rather than be tempted by one manufacturer's offers I'd look at what you need to actually start a shop. If you are intending to do joinery work, a staple of survival for many of us, I'd say that your list has one glaring omission, namely a crosscut saw of some description. A crosscut such as an SCMS gives you the ability the accurately size timbers to length whilst a radial arm saw adds to that the ability to trench if necessary. I have no doubt that there will now be the usual cohort who will tell me that that you can cross cut with a hand saw, Festool and rail, etc - well, yes you can, but not the 50 to 200+ times a day that joinery work can require (for example four off 4-panel doors would require up to 56 rough crosscuts, then up to another 40 dimension crosscuts to machine assuming the horns are left on for transport, that makes up to 96 cross cuts for four doors without the panels)

The traditional joinery workflow which you must be familiar with is:-

Crosscut -> rip -> plane -> thickness -> joint (mortise/tenon) -> profile (spindle/router) -> assemble -> sand -> finish

A bandsaw comes in somewhere between the joint and profile if required, but for much joinery work it is an irrelevance unless you intend to use it to cut tenons, in which case it can become a useful addition to your armoury.

Overall it doesn't seem a bad package, if you overlook the lack of crosscut, but I wonder whether it will be heavy enough to withstand the sort of work you are going to subject it to. I'd also say that you'll quickly tire of the RPM75 as it will be slow to set-up and use and it's accuracy will be nowhere near as good as a moving table machine.

Hope this hasn't put you off too much :wink:

Scrit

 

[Freetochat]

I'd also say that you'll quickly tire of the RPM75 as it will be slow to set-up and use and it's accuracy will be nowhere near as good as a moving table machine.

Scrit

I have the RPM75 and it is one of my regret purchases. When I set up my first workshop, I followed Record based on historic reputation, and quickly regreted my purchases. Accuracy and repeatability was seriously lacking, and many items from Record are rebadged imports. The only machine I have left from Record is the 75 and this is not often used. As with all things, buy the best that you can afford, but in my selections, if a machine is not easily setup and accurate, then the risk of shortcuts and disillusionment quickly follows.

Good Luck with your purchases!

 

[Roger]

I'd follow the later advice Juggler and avoid the 'package' deals. They're not what you need and are only designed to get you into one Manufacturer and get rid of surplus stock. Start with good basic equipment and hunt around for the best deals once you've decided on a particular make and model.

I don't have anything particular against Record, but having said that I only have one machine of theirs (a Lathe) and have never been tempted to get more! If you have the budget you stated, I would maybe avoid a Radial Arm to start with however and add the SCMS as Scrit mentioned.

 

[Scrit]

If you have the budget you stated, I would maybe avoid a Radial Arm to start with however and add the SCMS as Scrit mentioned.

There's fundamentally nothing wrong with the concept of the radial arm saw, it's in the lightweight executions that the problems exist. Lighter RASs do have a tendency to go out of alignment - having experienced this myself I'm convinced that the problem lies in the lightweight nature of the table bed/chassis as you normally won't find joinery shops complaining about trade-rated RASs.

Scrit

 

[Roger]

You're right on that one Scrit :wink: It took me months of searching to find a decent heavy duty RAS at a reasonable price. That's the trouble with most of them these days. Hobby rated at best unless you have deeeep pockets :shock:

 

[ProShop]

Not wishing to throw your purchasing plans into chaos,
I'd give the Record TSPP250 a big miss. if you do a search on the forum
on this you'll find the info.

As for the Record morticer the same as above applies.

The Scheppach gets my vote I have the Basato 5.4. But have a look at the Axminster oifferings. I'm not knocking Record here, but imho there are better machines out there for similar money.

Almost forgot, welcome to the forum , this is the place were if you mention a sum of money 2000 people will spend it for you in less than the blink of an eye .

 

[tim]

I have two Record machines - a bandsaw and the RPM 75. Both are pretty poor IMO. I don't use either much but if I did I would replace them both tomorrow.

Cheers

Tim

 

[Vormulac]

Welcome to the forum!

I'm afraid all I can offer on Record is that I have an RSDE2 and find it to be superb; however, as it is the only 'proper' dust extractor I've ever hooked up to my tools (the aging Dyson gaffer taped on doesn't really count) my point of reference is a little limited.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Vormulac.

 

[Colin C]

Hi Juggler,

Welcome to the forum

I also work for myself in a small workshop and I would say have a good look a round.

I have a sip bandsaw ( 12" one ) and I am very happy with it and if you look on Ebay you can get some very good deals ( also on the 14" one too ).

I am not sure what type of work you are looking at doing, I use mdf and solid wood and have the EZ rail system ( got rid of a poor saw out of the workshop ), with this and my bandsaw I can get all the cutting I need done at the moment ( workshop is 18'x10' ).

I would also look at the sip Planer/thicknesser ( again Ebay ), also one of the sip/fox/itec clone saws too.

Any way good luck with what you get and with work

 

[RogerM]

Welcome Juggler. You won't find a more helpful group of people than those you find here.

My advice, fwiw, is not to get too wedded to the idea of brand new kit. There are some terrific deals to be had second hand. I guess the main problem is that they don't come up to order.

This would have been a good deal for a Planer Thicknesser

Maybe for the TS get one that gives you the option of adding a sliding table when the budget allows. Something like this 10" TS from SIP perhaps?

Also I reckon a discount of £100 for the batch of new tools you've listed is nowhere near enough!

Just my two penn'orth! (hammer)

 

[Juggler]

Thanks for the overwhelming response and the warm welcome!

I just spent the last hour or so replying to everyone's views and went to submit it when it logged me out and deleted what i'd written!! :evil: so i'm gonna leave it till tomorrow to post it again cos i'm barely staying awake from the weekend i had in brighton and i now can't even type very well!!! i will however post the pics of some furniture i've made to date to give you all a little something back in return!

this is my first ever piece i made at college

these 2 were for the lvl 2 C&G... one modern one traditional

and this i made for my first customer on a ryobi 1525 TS and an old multico PT that requires brute force for thicknessing!!
other than that, sorry guys, i'm Knackered!! will say tho, i've had lots of other thoughts from what u've all said... the SIP TS that roger mentioned seems too good to be true? and i'm leaning on the basato 3 for name's sake as i need a bandsaw with accuray for resaw work. and one question is... should i snap out of the "i've not heard of them therefor i may be ripped off in a couple of years because they break" ?? that seems to be my attitude towards the likes of SIP, fox, perform and the likes.
anyways, more tomorrow, i'm going to bed :!:

 

[ProShop]

Love the table =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

 

[pewe]

I have no doubt that there will now be the usual cohort who will tell me that that you can cross cut with a hand saw, Festool and rail, etc - well, yes you can, but not the 50 to 200+ times a day that joinery work can require (for example four off 4-panel doors would require up to 56 rough crosscuts, then up to another 40 dimension crosscuts to machine assuming the horns are left on for transport, that makes up to 96 cross cuts for four doors without the panels)

Scrit, I don't want to appear as if I am being controversial and waht follows is purely my opinion based on my experience, but if there are a lot of repeat size crosscuts to do I personally would recommend a Rail system as being a much cheaper, easier to use solution than a RAS.

I, like Colin C, use the EZ Guide Rail, and a couple of weeks ago using standard timber I manufacured all the 'logs' I needed to build 'log cabin' style a 5m x 5m workshop in one day using it.

The total workload consisted of:
- Trimming 80 lengths of timber to size
- Routing 80 tongues (6m long)
- Routing 80 grooves (6m long)
- Cutting 320 x 45 degree chamfers (4 at each end of each length)
- Trenching 320 'slots' for the corner joints

All of this was done in a day using 2 guide rails, one B&Q (cheap) 7.25" circular saw and rail plate, one 1/2" router and mounting plate - and a couple of home made jigs.

I am currently putting together a complete detailed post on the process (including pictures) which I will post shortly.

Juggler. In my workshop I have a Scheppach TS4010 table saw (cost approx £2000), a router table, and 2 mitre saws (one standard and one Sliding) and none of them get very much use now - most of my work is done using the guide rail system.

I am not for a moment suggesting that the rail system is the be all and end all of workshop tools and can replace all other tools for everything, but I would suggest you give it serious consideration before spending hundreds on other tools first.

 

[Alf]

Welcome to the forum, Paul. Super work!

I just spent the last hour or so replying to everyone's views and went to submit it when it logged me out and deleted what i'd written!!

For future use, and the benefit of anyone who may not know, you can simply log in then go back in your browser (using the "back" button) to the page with your message, hit submit and it should hopefully all go through as if you'd been logged on all the time. The alternative is to open another forum page, log in and your already open page will now feel all warm and cuddly and logged in too. Well it works for me anyway.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Scrit]

....but if there are a lot of repeat size crosscuts to do I personally would recommend a Rail system as being a much cheaper, easier to use solution than a RAS.

To use my RAS I walk over to the machine (which is built into a long bench - typical of a joinery shop set-up), I pull the flip-over stop out on the scale to where it is required and lock it (I know one guy who simply nails a piece of 2 x 1 pine to the bench, although he is a pallet maker), I position the timber against the fence and stop and make the cut. Under 20 seconds to set and start the first cut, thereafter as fast as I can load the timber onto the saw bench. No jigs, no hassle, almost no time or effort.

I have a Bosch rail system - too slow to make a living at it, IMHO, even with jigs. A decent s/h RAS (Wadkin BRA, deWalt industrial, etc. not a lightweight "bendy" DIY model) can be had for £250 to £550 and will somewhat outlast an ally rail system, I feel. As a startup machine a good radial arm saw can be used to crosscut, mitre, rip, trench and tenon without the need for any other machinery at all. Whilst I'm not keen on using a RAS for ripping - it can be used for that in reasonable safety providing you follow the rules. This means a trade joinery shop could be set up with a RAS, a planer/thicknesser and a mortiser plus some tooling to do almost anything you need (even the P/T could be optional if you were to start out by using PAR timbers). With judicious buying that puts a shop up for under £1000 on static machinery and some tooling, possibly £1600 to £1700 if a 12 x 9in Sedgwick P/T were bought secondhand - all machines that will stay with the business whilst it grows and won't drop a lot of money (if any) if they have to be sold off later. Is there a secondhand market in used rails?

I find the big downer to utilising jigs is that they cost time and materials to make and they tend to take an inordinate amount of space to store between jobs.

BTW with pure joinery work I feel that it's more important to be able to rip and dimension timber and then to be able to mortise before considering crosscutting. After all that can be achieved with a hand or chop saw - both useful adjuncts when doing 1st and 2nd fix work out on site.

I, like Colin C, use the EZ Guide Rail, and a couple of weeks ago using standard timber I manufacured all the 'logs' I needed to build 'log cabin' style a 5m x 5m workshop in one day using it.

Pewe - as you are, by your own admission here the importer/distributor for the EZ Guide Rail system (as opposed to being just a user as your post suggests) it is obviously in your interest to promote your own product. I don't mind that, but I feel that you should have declared your interest before making your posting.

Scrit

 

[gardenshed]

Pewe - as you are, by your own admission here the importer/distributor for the EZ Guide Rail system

Ooooohhhh Subliminal messaging :shock: