Kitchen Fitter Required

[Jake]

I think fascists, historically, were more of the mindset that would have sent people up ladders and down holes not caring about health and safety, because they would just force some replacements to do the same if the first lot died.

 

[devonwoody]

Sorry to spoil the show lads but this ain't true!

No height limit no time limit however you do need to do a risk assessment to show control of hazards. Ladders CAN be OK however its often safer, quicker, cheaper to look at other access methods.

Like wise the hole & archeologist deeper than a metre (rule of the thumb by the way), where sides might cave in and smother you. Then a assessment & controls (shoring) needs to be considered.

Most of the stories about H&S bans are figments of some journalists imagination.

The bloke that said can't use ladders ought to get a visit from rogue traders

only joking

 

[Scrit]

.........but thought I'd put out the call here before contacting the local rip-off merchants/tradesman.

A bit belatedly, but may I point out that there are a number of us "rip-off merchants/tradesmen" on this site who've given you excellent free advice in the past (and in one case even visited you to help you out). I'm much more of a "tradesman" these days and take great exception to this thoughless, throw-away white-collar insult to myself and my colleagues. Yes, there are rogues in the building trades, but from my experience they are no more common than incompetent muppets/leadswingers/bozos/Richard Cranium types are in so-called white collar jobs.

Well, I would say that 90% of all tradesman I've dealt with in my local area over the last few years are exactly as described. But like anything in the world, there are always exceptions and I'm sure you're an honest and hardworking chap - it's just almost everyone I have had the misfortune off dealing with are daylight robbers.

So having insulted almost every one of the full-time tradespersons on this site you go on to compound the error of your ways....... If you start with that attitude, Byron, it's no wonder tradesmen quote you ridiculously high rates. In this part of the world this is a sign that they don't want the work - or that they don't want to work for you. Oh, and last time you used a solicitor, architect or dentist what were their charge rates like?

Example given: I was quoted today £90+ VAT per every half-hour plus £40 rate for jets to clear a blocked toilet, other quotes come in over £75+ VAT - this is day rate btw. And evening rate starts at 4.00pm!! It's a total joke and a rip-off, and this is not an isolated case.

But that price includes travel time to and from a job, insurance rates, equipment, insurances, etc. And just what would you want to be paid to clear away someone else's sh*te? Certainly not a job I'd relish doing.

But there was no intention to offend any tradesman on here, hence my asking if there was anyone around who wanted a simple job.

Really? Then maybe you'll engage brain next time before starting to type (or opening gob)? After all I (and others) don't insult your trade of spectacle mechanic, do we? :lol:

I've recently had the experience of working on a job where we had a 2+1 plastering team. The quality of their work and the speed at which they worked were astounding, but even up here in the frozen and impoverished north these guys weren't cheap. It made me realise that whilst I can plaster, I'm simply not in the same league as the pros - but then they can't do joinery work, can they? At least like most tradesmen, they realised their limitations. :wink:

The Tradesman Formerly Known as Scrit

 

[devonwoody]

The above thread now brings to my mind the story of Moyshe Dayan speaking about the 7 day war in Israel.

He was telling a British reporter that the front line was made up of architects, accountants, dentists, doctors.
And the reporter replied, "Can they charge"
Oh yes said Moyshe, "they can charge"
:lol: :lol:

I'm sure Byron was not wanting to offend, but like me speaks quickly.

 

[Gary M]

So having insulted almost every one of the full-time tradespersons on this site you go on to compound the error of your ways....... If you start with that attitude, Byron, it's no wonder tradesmen quote you ridiculously high rates. In this part of the world this is a sign that they don't want the work - or that they don't want to work for you. Oh, and last time you used a solicitor, architect or dentist what were their charge rates like?


The Tradesman Formerly Known as Scrit

=D> =D> nail on the head Scrit !! good to see you back !!

im not sorry to bring this post back up again,
point being as Scrit has mentioned,

Byron you have done all the easy, simple jobs yourself ie. fitting all the cabinets ect.
you have left out the hardest parts because you know how easy it would be to make a b***s of them and then expect someone to do them for you :roll:
hence the reason for the prices quoted!!!

what you want is mates rates, which is fair enough, but surely you dont expect a tradesman you dont know, to do all the awkward bits for you for mates rates ??
looking at your kitchen post, to fit all the units, worktops and sink, in and out in a day £400.
how long did it take you ??
thats what you are paying for :wink:

 

[Scrit]

What you want is mates rates, which is fair enough, but surely you dont expect a tradesman you don't know, to do all the awkward bits for you for mates rates ??

Lord save me from "mates rates" :roll: There's no such thing, really. If you're doing a job for a mate at a reduced rate then you're not doing a job for a paying customer - in other words your mate is taking the bread off your table, it's that simple. On the other hand I'm happy to do "favours" in return for "services" - I've recently made some MDF wall units for a guy who's a plasterer but is "wood challenged". In return he's going to be replastering my alcoves, bathroom and landing. The two jobs even each other out, so we're both happy.

As to worktops, my tarriff is £45 a joint, £25 per straight end or cut-out whilst sink plumbing I charge between £45 and £95 for depending on the complexity, materials required, etc. (Fairly typical prices round here, and why is it that I've yet to fit a sink where there are isolators already installed?) There's rarely such a thing as just doing the joints, though, as I often have to re-level, realign and properly anchor the base cabinets so expertly installed by the householder before I can get the worktops in, the walls are invariably not straight either and can require a bit of hacking of masonry and I absolutely hate installing worktops after the upper cabs have gone in as they can turn an awkward job in a small kitchen into the nasty "quart in a pint pot" scenario :twisted: Similarly I don't like other people sizing the worktops I'm installing because if one corner turns out to be an 86 degree angle all that careful cutting to length just means another trip to B&Q for another piece of worktop :roll: One thing about my prices - I'm not going to do a 25 mile round trip for one joint. My own preference is not to take a job on a "tarriff" rate unless there's a half or full days' work in it because it is difficult to make a living that way many other tradesmen seem to share this opinion. Perhaps, Byron, that explains some of the prices you've been quoted

Scrit

 

[Dave S]

One thing about my prices - I'm not going to do a 25 mile round trip for one joint. My own preference is not to take a job on a "tarriff" rate unless there's a half or full days' work in it because it is difficult to make a living that way many other tradesmen seem to share this opinion.
Scrit

Over the years I've seen several competent DIYers who have decided to give it a go as a living, doing all the small odd jobs that the established traders aren't interested in. They all have found they can't make it pay - just too much dead time measuring up, quoting, buying materials, travelling between jobs, yet the customers only want to pay for the time they are onsite. They can't make it pay.

As an aside, I do feel uncomfortable with the term 'rip-off' being bandied about so much these days. To me, 'rip-off' implies some kind of dishonesty. A quote for a job may be expensive, but you either accept the quote or go elsewhere. If you accept the quote and the job is done properly, you still haven't been ripped off. If on the other hand they charged you for something they didn't provide, then that would be a rip-off in my book.

Dave

 

[devonwoody]

Byron I can support some of your views, I have painted my outside walls a few times over the past 23 years, and each wall takes around 3 hours of painting.

I was quoted £200 last year to paint one wall (plus paint), so that was one rip off mechant that didn't get the job. Must get my ladders out and do that wall this summer though!

Anyone offers? :wink:

The gentleman who quoted above used to have two or three regular customers in our road (odd jobs) but I note that he is not in attendance on Wednesday or Thursday any more.
After all £200 for half a day equals £400 per day,£2000 per week or over £100,000 per annum. Not bad for an odd jobber or ROM. An oddjobber can always find work on a wet day doing indoor jobs as well.

 

[ByronBlack]

Scrit - don't be having a go at me and trying to justify youself, there is no need. I have my opinion of hte tradesman that I have met and dealt with and have based my opinion on them solely - at no stage have I directly inferred or insulted a member of this forum, so please get of your high horse.

And secondly, all the FREE advice that i've received on this forum has always been gratefully received - please go back and read all the posts where i always thank the person for their advice and show my gratitude - including yourself! So don't try and use that for an argument because it simply doesn't wash.

And for what it's worth, when I was freelance I charged just £35 per hour for all my services no matter what I thought of the client or the complexity of the job or the time I worked at. If you and other tradesman think it's fair to willingly charge people very high prices because of those factors, then i'm sorry, but that is a loss of integrity and is what gives some tradesman a bad name.

Anyway, no doubt you'll post a long and line-by line disection of my argument forcing your will upon this subject and generally dragging it away from topic - well feel free. I'm too bored with this to reply any longer, you've clearly taking my points out of topic and projected your own opinions upon it.. we'll knock yourself out, it's all yours!

 

[Gary M]

And for what it's worth, when I was freelance I charged just £35 per hour for all my services no matter what I thought of the client or the complexity of the job or the time I worked at.

Byron, i wish i could charge just £35 per hour, as i would probably be retired by now !!

your kitchen would have been two men 8am-6pm (10 hours each) maybe less !! just £20 per hour each, so thats £15 per hour less than you charge, justify that if you will!!

I think fascists, historically, were more of the mindset that would have sent people up ladders and down holes not caring about health and safety, because they would just force some replacements to do the same if the first lot died.

Exactly right, health and safety laws have been introduced to protect employees from fascist employers who dont care about their employees safety and welfare. they now legally have a duty of care enforced on them and can be prosecuted for not forfilling this duty of care, up to the point that there can be a very strong case for corporate manslaughter !!

If you and other tradesman think it's fair to willingly charge people very high prices because of those factors, then i'm sorry, but that is a loss of integrity and is what gives some tradesman a bad name.

where on earth did you get that statement from ??
your missing the point Byron,
you must have a very big chip on your shoulder if your assuming prices are inflated if you live in a big house :roll: :roll:
it is a waste of a day doing one worktop joint for anyone especially since you think you are being cute doing the easy stuff yourself !!

good work aint cheap, cheap work aint good !!

I'm too bored with this to reply any longer,

says it all mate !! if you cant stand the heat and all that !!

If you start with that attitude, Byron, it's no wonder tradesmen quote you ridiculously high rates. In this part of the world this is a sign that they don't want the work

sound advise !!

 

[Anonymous]

I think your all being a bit hard on him now.

 

[Scrit]

....don't be having a go at me and trying to justify youself, there is no need.

I don't think I need to justify myself or what I charge, but you obviously do.

Gary M makes several points quite succinctly. There appears to be an oft repeated mantra in the media that tradesman = con-man which you seem to have taken to heart.

I somehow doubt if you would be happy if someone were to post a defamatory post about your trade, so you should not have been surprised that someone objected to your post.

You imply that the thrust of your post was not aimed at anyone on the forum, then you continue by saying, "If you and other tradesman think it's fair to willingly charge people very high prices......" which is really a bit of a personal attack. I actually quoted you what I charge on some jobs, are you saying my prices are high? For example the £45 for a worktop joint includes the cost of the cutter (£5), the cost of the joiners (£2.50) and the sealant (£5) and time to check (and frequently correct) for "un-level" units together with all my overheads, investment in equipment, travel time and the risk factor that if I make a mistake it will cost me £60 to £120 for a replacement worktop. A risk you were unwilling to take. If I were on site for a half day or a full-day, however, I'd apply my day rates which are considerably less.

If you are too bored to reply maybe you'd consider what you write before posting such an inflamatory and derogatory post in the future.

Scrit

 

[tiler99]

What Scrit said.

 

[A_n_g_e_l_a]

My life experience biases me towards Byron's viewpoint although I have sympathy for those legal, decent and honest trades-people that write within this forum.

I think the term 'rip-off' is just a colloquial expression, perhaps used unfortunately in this thread as it appears to mean different things to different people. To me it means deviously greedy.

Towards the end of my working life I found myself at a loose-end answering an advert that asked ‘Do you want to be at the front?'. After a lifetime as a 'professional' I trained and eventually drove a bus for a living. Doing so I had many hours to think on the notion of wages and how we value people in our society.

Two years ago my bus driver wage reached the dizzy height of £8.44 an hour. For that I was responsible for the lives of up to 73 passengers and the care of a 40-foot double-decked omnibus worth over a £100K. A single mistake, causing an accident, could have seen me arrested and imprisoned. On night shifts, I was in danger of being mugged and stabbed. And one less than friendly toe-rag did offer to kill me one evening. For this I was rewarded with, let me stress, £8.44 an hour.

Now I understand that bus drivers are classed as semi-skilled. Our society seems to think they, in no sense compare to, or deserve the wage levels of skilled workers. But by how much should learning a skill be rewarded? Should it be two, three or five, times the bus driver's wage, or more? By how much should learning a skill and having to bear a liability of care be rewarded? By how much should learning a skill, having to bear a liability of care and taking the risk of being self-employed be rewarded? I could extend this line of argument to graduates working as professionals such as solicitors, accountants or doctors, but you probably get the point. Should there be a limit to what a person can earn?

We all carry our own notion of what we are worth vis-à-vis others. I think we become affronted when someone asks a fee for a job that challenges our own sense of worth and place in the jobs hierarchy . Hence Byron’s reported £35/hr pay rate is probably sub-consciously calculated in his head and compared against job estimates from trades people to give him a notion of good or bad value.

My own sense of worth made me question the 'value' of several quotes, for example, tidying up a garden - two days work £300/day over three years ago. That is, roughly, 5 times more than a bus driver's daily rate. An aerial fitter recently wanted £150 to supply and fit a replacement Sky dish; roughly three times my daily rate for less than an hour on-site. (Wholesale Sky dishes are less than £10 each). A built-up felt roofer wanted £1700 to re-felt a flat roofed garage of 23 square metres. When later challenged he said 'Oh yer .... I made a mistake in the calculation'. Well, perhaps he did, but perhaps he was just trying it on. The lowest quote I could get was £900; two blokes and boy in and out in less than a day. I asked one of them about the weather stopping his work - he told me he surprisingly had little down time in the last year. A solicitor with posted rates of £65/hour charged £100 + VAT to draw up a change of name deed. These things are standard Law Society stuff for which templates exist – so over an hour and a half for the job? I don’t think so.

So can these examples be regarded as greedy? Compared to my sense of self of worth I have to answer in the affirmative.

My general feeling is I get better value from the older generation of trades-people than I do the young. I may be prejudiced but many years ago I met a builder who was probably in his late fifties – at the time this would have been around 1971. I considered him to be very bright and wondered why he had remained working as a builder after leaving school at 14. It was most likely all about expectations. His family simply did not expect to have a bright prodigy going off to university – nor I suppose, could they afford to do without his wage coming in. His case must have been typical of thousands of bright boys, (no girls then of course), ending up in the trades. (I suspect Scrit, judging by his postings, might be one of them – but I would not want to embarrass him by having the temerity to suggest that here ) That process of apparent under-achievement left our post-war trades peppered with a high amount of intellect. For example Cedric Brown, once a gas fitter, became Chairman of British Gas before privatization. That process of from bottom to top probably couldn't happen today.

Today there is much more ‘ability layering’. Kids are tested at every turn; their life expectations are raised everywhere by rampant consumerism. Children, we hear, just want to be ‘famous’ without the graft. Dads have told me of their children setting up a business whom seem to think a flash van is important. A new van on credit before a business generates income is a big outlay that has to be reclaimed from somewhere. Then, of course they need all the toys. But someone has to ultimately pay for all those Festools; is it any wonder that job prices creep ever upwards?

Is it likely that some trades people, with less integrity than this forum’s readers of course, attempt to charge too much? On balance, I think it is.

 

[Slim]

I have sat back from this topic trying to resist posting. But I can no longer.

Byron, I understand that you had no intentions of personally insulting anyone on this forum. However, the statements such as "90% of tradesmen are con-men" could have no other outcome than to p-off most of the tradesmen on this site.

Angela, I would like to cross examine one of the examples you gave. "tidying up a garden - two days work £300/day". Now I am a self-employed landscape gardener. I would personally say that £300/day is a fair price. I spent 3 years studying horticulture, full time, and yet it appears that people have the mindset that gardening is not a skilled job. I can tell you, that there is a hell of a lot more knowledge required to be a successful gardener than probably any other trade.

As for you're quote: How many people was that for? The quote will have included removal and disposal of waste, which can be very expensive. For an average garden 'tidy-up' (Which usually means its a jungle) I could be £75-£150 to dispose of the waste.

Also included in the quote would be: Cost of machinery, cost of vehicle, travelling expenses, liability insurance, employee costs, cost of premises etc.. you get the picture. Say that the quote was for two people. It probably works out at £200 per person, £100 per day, £12.50 per hour.

Even if it was just one person £25.00 p/h is a perfectly fair wage for a skilled tradesman/woman.

 

[A_n_g_e_l_a]

Even if it was just one person £25.00 p/h is a perfectly fair wage for a skilled tradesman/woman.

Slimjim81, but that's the whole thrust of my post ... is a man who tells me he is a gardener worth three times a bus driver? And please remember this was three years ago. The fact that he offered no written contract nor even a written quote probably meant he was a self-styled gardener. If I had thought about it I could have offered a bus-driving colleague double his normal rate to do my garden and still be ahead of the game.

Your life experience clearly makes your sense of self worth higher. But are you sure you are comparing like with like? If you are a landscaper with something better than an NVQ level 3 I wouldn't, myself, compare you with a gardener come odd job man.

I think Byron and I have a problem with greedy semi-literates - by definition not those who read this forum - trying to put one over now and again.

If all trades people were legal, decent and honest there wouldn't be a need for trade organizations - nor schemes like Check-a-Trade. Unfortunately, when tarring someone with a brush, splashes do tend to get everywhere. So it may be worth recognizing this and getting a thicker coat.

 

[tim]

There's one word that is glaring in its omission throughout the whole of this thread: PROFIT.

I run my business to make profit and according to (for example) Wikipedia thats a pretty normal thing to do: "In economics, business is the social science of managing people to organize and maintain collective productivity toward accomplishing particular creative and productive goals, usually to generate profit."

I make that profit by determining a fine balance between charging too much (and pricing myself out of the market) or charging too little and not making any profit. My objective is not to make my customers money or add value to their houses or make their lives easier. These may well be by products of my relationship with them but they are not my objectives.

I charge as much as I know the market can bear, any less and I am not maximising my profit. Is that ripping people off? No one has ever been forced to engage my services. They are aware of the price before the work begins and if they are not satisfied that the work is of the agreed standard then there are the usual avenues available for redress. Ultimately, potential customers must decide whether they are getting value for their money. If they aren't, then I don't get the work.

Too many people make the incorrect conclusion that the cost of a service = profit and in the case of sole workers, wage of service provider.

Cheers

Tim

 

[ike]

Well put Tim.

The best tradespeople are more likely to be the ones advertising rarely if at all - word of mouth recommendations keep them busy, and who more often than not have a waiting list. I don't think affilliation to trade organizations is a particularly reliable indicator of honesty, integrity or workmanship - membership of many of these schemes is so easy to come by and so common as to be pretty meaningless. Personal recommendation however, has to be earned the old fashioned way.

Ike

 

[Gary M]

As for you're quote: How many people was that for? The quote will have included removal and disposal of waste, which can be very expensive. For an average garden 'tidy-up' (Which usually means its a jungle) I could be £75-£150 to dispose of the waste.

Also included in the quote would be: Cost of machinery, cost of vehicle, travelling expenses, liability insurance, employee costs, cost of premises etc.. you get the picture.

very obviously not !!

" £300/ per day let me see thats nearly 5 times what i get paid by my employer ----- i dont think so !! "

angela, you get £8.44 per hour, but have no expenses/ overheads to pay out of that, your employer pays all those.
i wonder how much it would cost me to hire your bus and driver for an hour ?? are you getting the picture yet ??probably more than 5 times your hourly rate.

i wonder who services your car, do you take it to the dealer and pay the rates without quibble ??
or do you take it to "jimmy" round the corner who says he is a mechanic, because he is cheaper ??

what happens when "jimmy" cant fix it because it needs specialist equipment ?? sorry i forgot about your bus driver collegue who will do it for twice his hourly rate :roll:

specialist equipment boils down to large overheads/expenditure
not forgetting rent /insurance/tax ect ect but you obviously dont take that into consideration

by the way there are alot more trade associations/ ombudsman bodies set up for the white collar sectors !!

 

[Keith Smith]

There seems to be a serious misunderstanding between those that are employed and those that are self employed. There is quite a soft cushion to being employed, paid leave, sick pay and company pension are all part of the bargain but not so for the self employed. Also Government benefits are largely excluded from the self employed even though we pay National Insurance. All this is worth a lot of money, £8.44 per hour probably equates to more like £15 per hour with all the benefits taken into account.

Plus some trades have high overheads, my last years accounts show that I had £9865 worth of expenses, which works out to nearly £200 per week and that is without any charges for the workshop!! Furthermore I probably work more than 60 hours a week but I'm lucky if I actually can charge for any more than half of that.

I accept there are some rip off tradesmen about, although in my experience you are just as, or perhaps more, likely to be ripped off by a so called "professional".