Keir Starmer

[ey_tony]

Tony - has it crossed your mind how a member who may not be white but who was born in the UK (since or even before 1971) may feel reading that?

To highlight the effects of mass migration I simply pointed out that prior to 1971, white British made up 87% of London's population whereas today it's 36.8%. I can't change facts in case it offends someone and it isn't my intention to do upset anyone I'm just pointing out that migration in recent decades has hugely changed London's demographics.
I have no issues with migrants no matter what colour their skin, in fact I have quite a number of good friends who are of diverse ethnic origins, either born here (2nd generation) or who migrated here many years ago so my issue is not with migrants per se, it's the numbers which are the problem.

Of those I mention, even they say the UK can't go on taking in more and more migrants without affecting our living standards simply because we just don't have the funds and infrastructure to cope with them. Very often Vox Pop interviews on streets including black people often shows them saying migration needs sorting and when people of ethnic origin think that there is a problem then it's fair to say there is.

The reality is that the British government can't service the needs of those already living here let alone service the needs of a constant influx of migrants turning up on the doorstep. It ultimately means higher taxers, lower living standards and arguably poorer services and infrastructure for everyone be they already living here or coming here as migrants.

If this issue isn't addressed soon then I fear we will see a genuine rise in far right politics like those coming to the fore in several European countries and I don't wish to see that happen in the UK.
If people think Farage is far right, then I dread to think what they would make of the far right politics of Europe.

 

[dizjasta]

If "Far Right Politics" is the same as self preservation of a cultural way of life. What is the problem with it becoming more popular?

 

[Yorkieguy]

there is no evidence that ethnic minorities are over represented in child sexual exploitation

but its handy for Tommy 10 Names, Farage, Braverman and others wanting to inflame hatred of foreigners.........their efforts have worked on you

did you vote for Reform?

Regrettably, the largest paedophile ring which came to light over half a century ago was Catholic Priests - not just in the UK either. When cases came to light, victims were told that a cornerstone of the Catholic faith was forgiveness. They were instructed to forgive the perpetrators who were then quietly moved elsewhere to prey of more victims. In many cases, Priests were held in such high regard that parents told their children they were wicked to make 'false' accusations.

After decades, in 2014, Pope Frances gave a half-hearted equivocal apology, strongly defending the Roman Catholic Church's record on tackling sexual abuse by priests, following UN criticism:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26989991#:~:text=Pope Francis has asked for,"sanctions"%20would%20be%20imposed

Church of England too -it went on for decade after decade, also covered up to prevent 'reputational damage'.

Not to forget Boarding schools.

Anywhere where predatory (usually white) males have access to vulnerable (invariably under age) children, use their powerful position to silence their victims.

The Asian grooming gang in Rotherham was one of several - another was at Rochdale:

The National Crime Agency's Child Exploitation and Online Protection Command (CEOP) identifies two types of group-based child abuse.

It says in “Type 1” offenders work in groups such as grooming gangs to target victims based on vulnerability.

“Type 2” offenders form paedophile rings to carry out abuse because of a specific sexual interest in children.

CEOP research published in 2012 states 85% of offenders found guilty of sexual activity with a minor in 2011 were white.

Another CEOP study released the following year found 75% of offenders in grooming-gang cases were from Asian backgrounds, while 100% in paedophile rings were white.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...se-rotherham-rochdale-newcastle-a8101941.html

 

[Yorkieguy]

Ho hum - there goes £1bn:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/oth...31&cvid=e02729c9daed43398a313a73cb634f39&ei=8

Children should be seen and not heard.

 

[dizjasta]

Regrettably, the largest paedophile ring which came to light over half a century ago was Catholic Priests - not just in the UK either. When cases came to light, victims were told that a cornerstone of the Catholic faith was forgiveness. They were instructed to forgive the perpetrators who were then quietly moved elsewhere to prey of more victims. In many cases, Priests were held in such high regard that parents told their children they were wicked to make 'false' accusations.

After decades, in 2014, Pope Frances gave a half-hearted equivocal apology, strongly defending the Roman Catholic Church's record on tackling sexual abuse by priests, following UN criticism:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26989991#:~:text=Pope Francis has asked for,"sanctions"%20would%20be%20imposed

Church of England too -it went on for decade after decade, also covered up to prevent 'reputational damage'.

Not to forget Boarding schools.

Anywhere where predatory (usually white) males have access to vulnerable (invariably under age) children, use their powerful position to silence their victims.

The Asian grooming gang in Rotherham was one of several - another was at Rochdale:

The National Crime Agency's Child Exploitation and Online Protection Command (CEOP) identifies two types of group-based child abuse.

It says in “Type 1” offenders work in groups such as grooming gangs to target victims based on vulnerability.

“Type 2” offenders form paedophile rings to carry out abuse because of a specific sexual interest in children.

CEOP research published in 2012 states 85% of offenders found guilty of sexual activity with a minor in 2011 were white.

Another CEOP study released the following year found 75% of offenders in grooming-gang cases were from Asian backgrounds, while 100% in paedophile rings were white.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...se-rotherham-rochdale-newcastle-a8101941.html
"75% of offenders in grooming gangs" confirms criminal acts while "100% in paedophile rings" does not indicate criminal acts.

 

[Chris152]

Ho hum - there goes £1bn:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/oth...31&cvid=e02729c9daed43398a313a73cb634f39&ei=8

Children should be seen and not heard.

Well, P&O are clearly "unscrupulous" and "exploitative" - let them take their business elsewhere.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Well, P&O are clearly "unscrupulous" and "exploitative" - let them take their business elsewhere.

What truly annoys me is the Rayner assertion "it is good for business" and "growth". This is garbage - that employment rights should be improved in some areas denies employers flexibility and increases risks and costs.

Decent employers do not need these rules - they know providing reasonable terms and conditions is a key element of a successful business. They will provide above the legal minimum if it makes good business sense.

Exploitative businesses will find them a burden. They are at liberty to take their business and investment and deploy it where ever they want. As a society, through our political leadership, we need to decide on the alternatives:

• new rules and possibly/probably fewer jobs, smaller tax base, more unemployment
• accept less than desirable workers rights

There may be a good social case to legislate for improved minimum acceptable standards - whether Labour proposals match or exceed them is open to debate.

 

[Jacob]

So 'fear' is your key word of the day when it comes to anyone who is against wholesale migration to the UK!

Yes that's it. It suddenly struck me - it's what the unwoke seem to have in common, they all share the same opinions and fear seems to be the common factor. It's a frightening world!
You'd do well to watch this series, or read the book; https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b082x0h6
I'm sure you would be less anxious about these things if you just got up to speed.

 

[Jacob]

Well, P&O are clearly "unscrupulous" and "exploitative" - let them take their business elsewhere.

Exactly. If they don't want to treat their staff well they should **** off.

 

[spanner48]

They don't like it either, which is why they want to come here, surely this is glaringly obvious?
Good luck to them. Petty bureaucracy and a few racist riots must seem like nothing at all compared to what many of them have had to put up with.
It does seem that simple fear is behind racism and most of the conspiracy theories which get mentioned.
Let's face it; climate change, record hurricane levels, covid pandemics, mass vaccinations, mass population movements, collapsing public services, "socialism", house prices, .....etc etc are pretty alarming and not made any easier by obvious failure at government level.
But fear and crackpot explanations don't offer solutions, even if they are the first resort for many, as we see.
Changing the conversation - it should also be about irrational fear.

"They don't like it either, which is why they want to come here, surely this is glaringly obvious?"

Yes, indeed. The 2024 African Youth Survey poll, released on Tuesday by fhe Johannesburg-based Ichikowitz Family Foundation found that, over the 16 African countries surveyed, almost 60% of young people were wishing or intending to emigrate within the next 5 years. The principal reasons given were corruption, lack of "suitable" job opportunities, and tribal or family favouritism amongst politicians and civil servants. Last year, births in Africa were more than one third of all births worldwide. So in 18 years we are likely to see an annual 30 million actual or would-be migrants. Mostly, by all accounts, heading for Europe or North America.

But not liking it there doesn't give them automatic right to come and settle here. Particularly if they bring with them those same attitudes to corruption, despotism, tribalism and nepotism.

"People come with their culture, for better or worse, most trying to escape it.
Not something to be afraid of - as we all know, they slowly integrate."

EXAMPLE: Germany has a 3 million immigrant Turkish community: the descendants of the 1950s 'Gastarbeiter' programme. Many/most are now third or more generation German-born. Less than one in twelve holds a German passport or nationality. In 2017 a Referendum was held in Turkey, on altering the constitution to make Erdogan [then a constitutional Presiden] a complete and lifelong Dictator. He would have absolute power to make or change laws, to interpret them how he wished, to ignore Parliament, and to deal with opposition any way he wanted.

Overall, the result was 51.4% in favour; 48.6% against. But among the Turks living in Germany – who had in every case spent 60+ years, or their entire lives, living in a democratic European society – the votes were 82% in favour; only 18% against.

If that prospect is one you find appealing: KINDLY SO SAY

In the meantime: Be Afraid; Be very Afraid

 

[Jacob]

What truly annoys me is the Rayner assertion "it is good for business" and "growth". This is garbage - that employment rights should be improved in some areas denies employers flexibility and increases risks and costs.

They said the same sort of thing about slavery.

Decent employers do not need these rules - they know providing reasonable terms and conditions is a key element of a successful business. They will provide above the legal minimum if it makes good business sense.

Still helpful to have some basic rules so they know what the others are having to do.

....
There may be a good social case to legislate for improved minimum acceptable standards

It's pretty much what the Labour movement has always been about from very beginning.
And before that through history - "The Charter of the Forest" was the Magna Carta for the working class, which the land owning oligarchy has been attacking and diminishing from early days.
PS weird coincidence - just as I was typing the above an email dropped in promoting "The Right to Roam", which shows how far we have regressed since the Charter of the Forest 800 years ago.

 

[TRITON]

in reality the majority of child grooming is caused by white men

Absolutely correct, the VAST majority.

But to the haters and racists they would look at 100 cases and pick the only 2 offences committed by brown people and cite those as endemic to that community.

The ICCSA reports certainly back up evidence that this has been going on for decades(if not centuries) in the UK alone, and is in all the institutions from youth custody to orphanages to hospitals and sports clubs.

 

[Jacob]

"They don't like it either, which is why they want to come here, surely this is glaringly obvious?"

Yes, indeed. The 2024 African Youth Survey poll, released on Tuesday by fhe Johannesburg-based Ichikowitz Family Foundation found that, over the 16 African countries surveyed, almost 60% of young people were wishing or intending to emigrate within the next 5 years. The principal reasons given were corruption, lack of "suitable" job opportunities, and tribal or family favouritism amongst politicians and civil servants. Last year, births in Africa were more than one third of all births worldwide. So in 18 years we are likely to see an annual 30 million actual or would-be migrants. Mostly, by all accounts, heading for Europe or North America.

But not liking it there doesn't give them automatic right to come and settle here. Particularly if they bring with them those same attitudes to corruption, despotism, tribalism and nepotism.

EXAMPLE: Germany has a 3 million immigrant Turkish community: the descendants of the 1950s 'Gastarbeiter' programme. Many/most are now third or more generation German-born. Less than one in twelve holds a German passport or nationality. In 2017 a Constitutional Referendum was held in Turkey, on altering the constitution to make Erdogan [then a constitutional Presiden] a complete and lifelong Dictator. He would have absolute power to make or change laws, to interpret them how he wished, and to deal with opposition any way he wanted.

Overall, the result was 51.4% in favour; 48.6% against. But among the Turks living in Germany – who had in every case spent 60+ years, or their entire lives, living in a democratic European society – the votes were 82% in favour; only 18% against.

If that prospect is one you find appealing: KINDLY SO SAY

See what I mean about fear? Q.E.D. Excellent example of a fearful right-winger spooking himself! Thanks for that @spanner48 !!
Here's a leading right-wing politician trying to spook his electorate:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...hetoric-as-harris-promises-bipartisan-council

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Absolutely correct, the VAST majority.

But to the haters and racists they would look at 100 cases and pick the only 2 offences committed by brown people and cite those as endemic to that community.

The ICCSA reports certainly back up evidence that this has been going on for decades(if not centuries) in the UK alone, and is in all the institutions from youth custody to orphanages to hospitals and sports clubs.

As they outnumber the others five to one it would odd if it wasn't.

 

[ey_tony]

Yes that's it. It suddenly struck me - it's what the unwoke seem to have in common, they all share the same opinions and fear seems to be the common factor. It's a frightening world!
You'd do well to watch this series, or read the book; https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b082x0h6
I'm sure you would be less anxious about these things if you just got up to speed.

There is in fact a huge difference between fear and 'concern' based on actual fact and not to recognise and acknowledge this exhibits a complete lack of appreciation of the subject and their argument is driven by emotion rather than hard facts.

As an example I quoted the facts that London's demographic has changed dramatically in the past five or so decades from 87% of London's population identifying as 'white' British in 1971 to just 36.8% today/2021. In anybody's world that is a huge decline in specific demographic make up.

Of course we have 2nd and even 3rd generation ethnic groups making up those who identify as London's non-white population who arrived here in the 60s and later which will naturally change the demographics as they themselves contribute to the birthrate but I can't see those ethnic origin 2nd and 3rd non-white generation numbers accounting for the huge fall in the white British population numbers of London.
Migration from other parts of the world gravitating to the UK's capital city is the only obvious answer and has resulted in glaring changes to London's demographics and is reflected in some other cities/areas particularly across England

London because of its population size and elsewhere in England because of their numbers plays a very important part in the results in the outcome of general elections and if white voters are in a minority in certain wards ethnicity could well determine and influence the political results for the entire UK so to be concerned I'd say is quite normal, particularly to those who don't wish to see the UK's traditions and culture diluted further.

Other facts for your consumption: In 2011, 80.5% of the UK's population identified as 'white British', in 2021 that figure had reduced to 74.4 and given that the over 65 age group had increased over that same period then by using extrapolation which I agree contains hidden assumptions, there will come a point where the white British demographic inevitably would be in a minority unless other factors change.
Calculated out with dynamics remaining constant it equates to 53 years time when white British population will begin to be in a minority, assuming the progression is linear.
To put it in perspective if biologists studying species identified such trends in one group in the animal kingdom then that would be of serious concern to them.

 

[TRITON]

Some dont seem to understand what London is and its place in history.
Major trading center for at least a thousand years and a total mixing pot of cultures

Someone above cited the demographics of London as being 36%. whatever white British. Though the number of white is 53+% with British Asian being 20.8% and British Black being 13.5% meaning the percentage of British people living in London is about 70%

Now of course the Black and Asian British that make up the London population and are as British as you or I, have decedents from abroad, but they might have arrived here over 100 years ago. And 78% have English as a first language.

I wonder though of the 1/2m that emigrate from the UK every year to places abroad speak the language of their new home. Im guessing person for person its a lot less. Certainly theres tens of thousands of old fogies living in Spain who can't speak Spanish.

At least judging from that program on tv "Bargain Loving British Immigrants In The Sun"

Have you noticed on that program the way they all pretty much live and socialize with other British immigrants ?, even going so far as to shop in places opened up by British immigrants and go to British immigrant owned pubs and eateries.

It seems they just don't want to integrate with their Spanish hosts.

 

[MikeJhn]

You should not quote a programme you have made up as a fact, the actual tittle of the programme is "Bargain loving Brits in the Sun" and most are OAP's that have moved to a foreign land to enable them to keep warm and eat at a reasonable cost.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Some dont seem to understand what London is and its place in history.
Major trading center for at least a thousand years and a total mixing pot of cultures

Someone above cited the demographics of London as being 36%. whatever white British. Though the number of white is 53+% with British Asian being 20.8% and British Black being 13.5% meaning the percentage of British people living in London is about 70%

Now of course the Black and Asian British that make up the London population and are as British as you or I, have decedents from abroad, but they might have arrived here over 100 years ago. And 78% have English as a first language.

I wonder though of the 1/2m that emigrate from the UK every year to places abroad speak the language of their new home. Im guessing person for person its a lot less. Certainly theres tens of thousands of old fogies living in Spain who can't speak Spanish.

At least judging from that program on tv "Bargain Loving British Immigrants In The Sun"

Have you noticed on that program the way they all pretty much live and socialize with other British immigrants ?, even going so far as to shop in places opened up by British immigrants and go to British immigrant owned pubs and eateries.

It seems they just don't want to integrate with their Spanish hosts.

Although not a future I aspire to, for many the Costas are simply Southend, Margate or Eastbourne with year round sunshine. They don't want to integrate, prefer a profusion of bars selling John Smiths bitter and restaurants with a traditional Sunday roast.

If they are happy with their lives, and the Spanish happy with their money, all is well. No need for criticism.

For UK immigrants the motivation is unlikely to be a desirable climate - more likely jobs, security, law and order, healthcare etc. Many first generations did not speak English - certainly true of Asian and Jewish communities.

In both cases immigrant populations tend to coalesce providing those without language and other skills cultural and emotional support. 2nd and 3rd generations start to integrate - language, culture, move location, personal relationships etc.

 

[MikeJhn]

The new proposed employment laws are not dissimilar to those in France, where it is impossible to dismiss anyone no matter what the cause, the employees take three hour lunch breaks, don't think for a minute it's two hour, they don't work the half hour on either side of the lunch break, you also will not be served or talked too within the last hour of any business closing for the day.

 

[Jacob]

The new proposed employment laws are not dissimilar to those in France, where it is impossible to dismiss anyone no matter what the cause, the employees take three hour lunch breaks, don't think for a minute it's two hour, they don't work the half hour on either side of the lunch break, you also will not be served or talked too within the last hour of any business closing for the day.

Sounds very civilised! They seem to be doing well on it and our occasional holidays in France are always a pleasure. Almost everything is better quality and value than the UK equivalent.