Keir Starmer

[John Brown]

A very fair comment.

Spending the money on doctors, nurses, teachers etc would have very similar economic benefits.

This would provide services the whole community could appreciate - unlike the provision of accommodation etc for asylum seekers which is perceived as a burden not a benefit.

So process them promptly!

 

[Vulcan]

I sometimes wonder if there is a correlation between personal wealth and the attitude to illegal immigration?
It certainly appears to be the case that many well off people don’t seem to perceive it as a problem. Whilst those on low incomes or unemployed very much do.

 

[ey_tony]

thank you for reply.

So what you are saying is: its ok to flee from external military violence, but its not ok to flee from internal military violence.
Are you saying being bombed by your own government is less painful?


Do you stand by the logic of your argument?

Let's not lose sight of the fact that the party in power in Syria is actually the OFFICIAL government voted in by the population as it happens. It is fighting a civil war with so called freedom fighters but one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

It's the warlords, ISIS, the so-called freedom fighters etc that is the problem. Added to that you have Western propaganda and interference so you're not being fed the whole story.
You've also got an inter-Islamic sectarian power struggle between the Sunni and Shia across the Middle East which has been ongoing since the 7th Century so choose sides carefully. There are proxy wars being fought all across the Middle East right now and it's an Islamic problem and not the West's.

As for those young men seeking asylum in Europe. Most of them are of fighting age claiming to have had to leave their homes and families behind.
The question to ask is why would young men of fighting age abandon their families to an unknown fate while they lord it in hotels in the UK and elsewhere?

Each to their own but I don't have much time or admiration for anyone who runs off and leaves their unprotected families to whatever fate awaits them in the war torn regions.
You don't see that happening in Ukraine.
Yes you have the women and children of Ukraine being given asylum which is only right but their menfolk stay and fight their enemy. They haven't hoofed it and done a runner. The Ukrainian men have my utmost respect for standing up to Putin and that would be the kind of thing I and most others would have done in my younger days had I been in that position.
I personally couldn't have lived with myself had I left my family to save own skin.

 

[ey_tony]

I sometimes wonder if there is a correlation between personal wealth and the attitude to illegal immigration?
It certainly appears to be the case that many well off people don’t seem to perceive it as a problem. Whilst those on low incomes or unemployed very much do.

That's because the better off don't face the challenges of competing for jobs, housing and infrastructure which those at the lower end of the pay scale are faced with on a daily basis.

 

[Jacob]

I sometimes wonder if there is a correlation between personal wealth and the attitude to illegal immigration?
It certainly appears to be the case that many well off people don’t seem to perceive it as a problem.

Not true at all. Farage is multi-millionaire and all the leaders of reform and many other hard-right nutters, tend to be very well off.
Here is a well known gang of racists and all mega rich:

Whilst those on low incomes or unemployed very much do.

People on low incomes can be suckers for the propaganda coming from the chaps above and the right-wing media dominated by right-wing, mega-rich, non-doms. Add that to an endemic basic level of racism always lurking below the surface.
It's very traditional for the establishment to encourage the blame game, to distract attention from themselves as real culprits of much that is wrong in society. Any target will do: single mothers on benefits is popular, black people, foreigners, socialists, the unemployed, the woke, students, .......etc

 

[sploo]

I sometimes wonder if there is a correlation between personal wealth and the attitude to illegal immigration?
It certainly appears to be the case that many well off people don’t seem to perceive it as a problem. Whilst those on low incomes or unemployed very much do.

That's because the better off don't face the challenges of competing for jobs, housing and infrastructure which those at the lower end of the pay scale are faced with on a daily basis.

Possibly because those at the top benefit from exploiting cheap foreign labour (in order to make them yet richer). The fault doesn't lie with the immigrants (an immigrant doesn't "take your job" - it's taken away from you by someone who can save costs by paying someone else less).

That said, a good chunk of anti-immigrant rhetoric is likely pushed in order to try to divert attention from the above; when a lot of unskilled labour is probably more at risk these days from being replaced by automation than by immigration.

 

[ey_tony]

People on low incomes can be suckers for the propaganda coming from the chaps above

Come to think of it you're correct!
Suckers to believe their absolute twaddle!

 

[Jacob]

....

There is a gulf between the two opposing views on immigration - those who see it as a humanitarian duty and benefit vs those who regard it as a disruptive and costly burden at the expense of UK citizens. Both views have some justification.

Yeah that crazy so-called "good" Samaritan was just a virtue-signalling, woke, nosey-parker, do-gooder. He should have walked on by like the sensible people and saved himself from "a disruptive and costly burden". Obvious innit!

 

[RobinBHM]

I sometimes wonder if there is a correlation between personal wealth and the attitude to illegal immigration?
It certainly appears to be the case that many well off people don’t seem to perceive it as a problem. Whilst those on low incomes or unemployed very much do.

I cant imagine why......


Yes the billionaire owned media have spent many years gaslighting the people into believing decades of govt policies transferring money from poor to rich is actually all the fault of foreigners (it used to be the fault of the EU)

since 2010 wages for people on low incomes have stagnated whilst the top earners have seen their wealth and income soar.

Since the mid 80s weve had endless privatisation, wealth and assets have transferred from government to the hands of the wealthy

the result is the lowest paid have been the ones which have seen their living standards crumble and their communities suffer decline


the people who have done this and the right wing media which have persuaded ordinary working people to vote against their best interests...............have been working extremely hard to convince the ordinary working man that it is foreigners that are to blame and not the policies of the successive governments that have done it

 

[ey_tony]

Possibly because those at the top benefit from exploiting cheap foreign labour (in order to make them yet richer). The fault doesn't lie with the immigrants (an immigrant doesn't "take your job" - it's taken away from you by someone who can save costs by paying someone else less).

That said, a good chunk of anti-immigrant rhetoric is likely pushed in order to try to divert attention from the above; when a lot of unskilled labour is probably more at risk these days from being replaced by automation than by immigration.

The people at the lower end of the pay scale are largely dependent upon others to provide them with employment.
It doesn't take much imagination to figure out that employers will gravitate to the lowest figures to pay out in wages to maximise their profits which to be fair is how the world works.

If here is an excess of low skilled labour in the form of migrants vying for work then that is only going to serve to depress the wages of the poor which was happening due to the EU's right to roam policies.
It's only when there is a shortage of labour will there be wage rises for the poorest paid so immigrant labour is not going to benefit or improve the quality of life for the lower paid that's for sure.

 

[RobinBHM]

View attachment 189950
Come to think of it you're correct!
Suckers to believe their absolute twaddle!

Come on Tony, tribalism isnt terrible useful to a political debate

this Labour party has one of the highest numbers of MPs from state school of any party, there are some very good MPs in the cabinet....have a look at some youtube clips of the MPs on the left of your picture, Darren Jones



Indeed the Conservative party has some good MPs (although sadly most of them got the boot in 2019). David Amess was a great ambassador for Southend.

 

[ey_tony]

I cant imagine why......


Yes the billionaire owned media have spent many years gaslighting the people into believing decades of govt policies transferring money from poor to rich is actually all the fault of foreigners (it used to be the fault of the EU)

since 2010 wages for people on low incomes have stagnated whilst the top earners have seen their wealth and income soar.

Since the mid 80s weve had endless privatisation, wealth and assets have transferred from government to the hands of the wealthy

the result is the lowest paid have been the ones which have seen their living standards crumble and their communities suffer decline


the people who have done this and the right wing media which have persuaded ordinary working people to vote against their best interests...............have been working extremely hard to convince the ordinary working man that it is foreigners that are to blame and not the policies of the successive governments that have done it

Irrespective of your argument regarding who is to blame, briefly where do we put all these migrants who want to come here? Where is the housing and infrastructure to accommodate them and where is the money coming from to fund them?

 

[RobinBHM]

If here is an excess of low skilled labour in the form of migrants vying for work then that is only going to serve to depress the wages of the poor which was happening due to the EU's right to roam policies

evidence shows that is not actually correct

In 2018, the Migration Advisory Committee reviewed the results of studies conducted between 2003 and 2018 and drew three conclusions. First, immigration had little or no impact on average employment or unemployment of existing workers. Second, where an impact was found, it was usually concentrated among certain groups – i.e. a negative effect for those with lower education and a positive effect for those with higher levels of education. And third, the impact may depend on the economic cycle; some—though not all—studies have found adverse effects on employment or unemployment, specifically during downturns.

Similarly, the MAC review concluded that immigration had had little impact on average wages, according to previous research. Some studies had found a small negative impact on average wages, while others found positive average effects.

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/

It doesn't take much imagination to figure out that employers will gravitate to the lowest figures to pay out in wages to maximise their profits

if that is true, how come livig standards are significantly higher in many EU countries than the UK?

Also you seem to be arguing against unregulated free market economies where employers can exploit workers.



Also do you support the Unions in this country which fight for decent wages and decent workers rights?

I find it rather ironic that people who supported brexit as an argument that ending free movement would result in higher wages for British people...........are generally the same people who argue strongly against Unions like the RMT fighting for better pay and conditions....for British workers

 

[ey_tony]

Come on Tony, tribalism isnt terrible useful to a political debate

this Labour party has one of the highest numbers of MPs from state school of any party, there are some very good MPs in the cabinet....have a look at some youtube clips of the MPs on the left of your picture, Darren Jones



Indeed the Conservative party has some good MPs (although sadly most of them got the boot in 2019). David Amess was a great ambassador for Southend.

Rob this thread really is about Keir Starmer and I personally don't think he is up to the job as the UK's leader. He's out of his depth. It has nothing to do with tribalism I drew that conclusion a long time ago when he was in opposition. He was clueless then and he's even arguably worse in office.
He's also surrounded himself with clueless numpties so I don't have high opinion of him and crew so far.

 

[RobinBHM]

Irrespective of your argument regarding who is to blame, briefly where do we put all these migrants who want to come here? Where is the housing and infrastructure to accommodate them and where is the money coming from to fund them?

Well they are coming here, and you nor anybody else that doesnt want them coming here, never come up with any solutions to prevent it, its always knee jerk reactions like pushing back the boats.



If you want my opinion we should put more money and resources into processing their claims. Then once processed those that are given asylum should be given the help they need to get a job and benefit the economy

At the same time the UK govt should be negotiating return agreements wherever possible to ensure tey get returned

And we need more efforts put into stopping the smuggling gangs

here is an example:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...0-migrant-boats-bound-for-channel/ar-AA1rpKjO

 

[RobinBHM]

Rob this thread really is about Keir Starmer and I personally don't think he is up to the job as the UK's leader. He's out of his depth. It has nothing to do with tribalism I drew that conclusion a long time ago when he was in opposition. He was clueless then and he's even arguably worse in office.
He's also surrounded himself with clueless numpties so I don't have high opinion of him and crew so far.

I am sorry but your post is literally pure tribalism:

"dont think hes up to the job"
"hes out of his depth"
"hes clueless"
"even arguably worse in office"
"surrounded himself with clueless numpties"

opinions without any supporting evidence...........classic tribalism

come on Tony surely you can see the funny side of your post

 

[ey_tony]

evidence shows that is not actually correct

In 2018, the Migration Advisory Committee reviewed the results of studies conducted between 2003 and 2018 and drew three conclusions. First, immigration had little or no impact on average employment or unemployment of existing workers. Second, where an impact was found, it was usually concentrated among certain groups – i.e. a negative effect for those with lower education and a positive effect for those with higher levels of education. And third, the impact may depend on the economic cycle; some—though not all—studies have found adverse effects on employment or unemployment, specifically during downturns.

Similarly, the MAC review concluded that immigration had had little impact on average wages, according to previous research. Some studies had found a small negative impact on average wages, while others found positive average effects.

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/



if that is true, how come livig standards are significantly higher in many EU countries than the UK?

Also you seem to be arguing against unregulated free market economies where employers can exploit workers.



Also do you support the Unions in this country which fight for decent wages and decent workers rights?

I find it rather ironic that people who supported brexit as an argument that ending free movement would result in higher wages for British people...........are generally the same people who argue strongly against Unions like the RMT fighting for better pay and conditions....for British workers

I'm always sceptical when it comes to studies created by some obscure academic so let me give you an actual working example of how migration has grossly affect the people in my locality.
I live in a rural part of East Yorkshire and 30 years ago there were three employment agencies which provided staff for the food industry in the area (greenhouses, chickens, food factories etc). There was always a healthy supply of workers and work to keep both the employers and employees happy all supplied by as I say three local area employment agencies .

That was until the Eastern European labour Barons took over by pushing out local workers and supplying cheaper Eastern European workers who would do the jobs cheaper and live in farm sheds and other appalling conditions so that the local agencies couldn't compete. The Eastern European worker would put up with working conditions that British workers wouldn't. especially when it came to heath and safety.
I don't suppose you can blame the employers for grabbing cheaper labour but to say migration has not had an impact is nonsense to say the least.

How many of those agencies do you suppose exist now and how many local people are employed by these agencies now? NONE is the answer.

The local farm and casual work has all but dried up for local people, it's all been replaced by Easter European agencies and workers so when I read about these so called studies I take them with a large pinch of the proverbial as I don't trust any studies intended to prove that migration is not a problem as real life experiences for most people would say otherwise.

 

[Spectric]

He's also surrounded himself with clueless numpties so I don't have high opinion of him and crew so far.

That is common in so many different areas, to make a clueless numptie appear to be more inteligent you hide them amongst even more clueless numpties.

 

[stevep]

If you want my opinion we should put more money and resources into processing their claims. Then once processed those that are given asylum should be given the help they need to get a job and benefit the economy

Start it at the British Embassy in their own countries. And make this the only way. Seems quite simple to me. Turn up on a dinghy or any other way and you get sent straight home to apply the proper way.

 

[ey_tony]

I am sorry but your post is literally pure tribalism:

"dont think hes up to the job"
"hes out of his depth"
"hes clueless"
"even arguably worse in office"
"surrounded himself with clueless numpties"

opinions without any supporting evidence...........classic tribalism

come on Tony surely you can see the funny side of your post

To be honest I'd say that about whoever was in power irrespective of the colour their rosette if they exhibited the same qualities or lack thereof.
I much preferred Corbyn as an opposition leader. Even though I may not have agreed with his politics I admired the man for the conviction of his beliefs which never wavered in his political lifetime plus you knew where you stood with him.
Starmer as a politician is not patch on Corbyn and I'm certainly not a left wing supporter but give me Corbyn any day that this flip-flopper.