Karl Holtey - flattenning

[bugbear]

Of course they have their place but lets not attach so much emotion to them that we lose sight of the purpose.

In the same way that people that own and drive Mondeos might consider Ferraris as a Platonic ideal, yer' typical user of Record and LVs (in which category I fall) might consider a Holtey in a similar light.

Car owners don't seem to "lose sight of the purpose" of cars just because Ferraris exist.

I see no reason for conflict or confusion here.

BugBear

 

[Modernist]

Of course they have their place but lets not attach so much emotion to them that we lose sight of the purpose.

In the same way that people that own and drive Mondeos might consider Ferraris as a Platonic ideal, yer' typical user of Record and LVs (in which category I fall) might consider a Holtey in a similar light.

Car owners don't seem to "lose sight of the purpose" of cars just because Ferraris exist.

I see no reason for conflict or confusion here.

BugBear

I don't think that is a valid metaphor because the gulf in performance between a ferrari and modeo is not replicated between KH and the big 3.

I think that to suggest, as you did yesterday, that a LN was "unusable" out of the box is highly unrepresentative of the true situation. If that was so then you should have sent it back as clearly faulty. I use a mixture of planes from all the common names, plus some European woodies, except Clifton, where I am not attracted to the Preston style aesthetics - so I excercise my choice. The better ones LN,LV etc are simply superb at their function with normal fettling and completely adequate for purpose.

KH is a different thing in a different place to which it has every entitlement.

 

[frugal]

Of course they have their place but lets not attach so much emotion to them that we lose sight of the purpose.

In the same way that people that own and drive Mondeos might consider Ferraris as a Platonic ideal, yer' typical user of Record and LVs (in which category I fall) might consider a Holtey in a similar light.

Car owners don't seem to "lose sight of the purpose" of cars just because Ferraris exist.

I don't think that is a valid metaphor because the gulf in performance between a ferrari and modeo is not replicated between KH and the big 3.

In 99.9% of the cases the Ferrari and the Mondeo are used for the same thing, doing 30 mph around town and 70 mph on the motorway[1][2]. At which point the ferrari does exactly the same job as the mondeo.

If they are both doing the same job then the only reason to go for the more expensive one is down to asthetics and style. I will admit that the ferrari will let you accelerate faster, brake later and corner faster, but for most journeys you will get to the destination at about the same time.



[1] I will accept that some Ferrari owners race them on a track, but not many
[2] Yes many ferrari owners will go above the speed limit, but I have been passed by more Mondeos doing 120 than I have Ferraris.

 

[bugbear]

I see no reason for conflict or confusion here.

BugBear

I don't think that is a valid metaphor because the gulf in performance between a ferrari and modeo is not replicated between KH and the big 3.

I think that to suggest, as you did yesterday, that a LN was "unusable" out of the box is highly unrepresentative of the true situation. If that was so then you should have sent it back as clearly faulty.

I think you're confusing me with someone else....

PaulO said that his LN's "required work". I don't think this implies that they were "unusable" prior to the work, merely that improvement was possible.

BugBear

 

[Modernist]

I doubt that any re-finishing to the bed of any of the big 3 would produce any noticeable improvement in end result.

Sorry but you are just plain wrong. If you have a plane from the big three with a sole you haven't touched I'd be happy to prove you wrong.

But maybe your standards of work are lower than mine? :wink:

As I said in my previous post I have flattened the sole of five LN all of them were improved ( #5, large shoulder, #9, block plane, 112 scraper). I'd go so far as to say the shoulder plane was unusable before flattening. The #8 had a perfect sole out of the box, but I gather they do extra manual flattening of these in the factory.

Sorry Bugbear - I did - but I stand by the rest

 

[bugbear]

Sorry Bugbear - I did - but I stand by the rest

That's fine - if you're not interested "look away now".

But please don't presume to tell the rest of what should (and shouldn't) be of interest.

BugBear

 

[Modernist]

Sorry Bugbear - I did - but I stand by the rest

That's fine - if you're not interested "look away now".

But please don't presume to tell the rest of what should (and shouldn't) be of interest.

BugBear

I think I made it clear that I was not telling the rest what should be of interest but expressing my own viewpoint. I note you took it upon yourself to tell me what I should and should not presume.

You don't have to agree with me, and clearly haven't,which does not cause me a problem.

Any chance of seeing the results of these superb implements?

 

[bugbear]

Sorry Bugbear - I did - but I stand by the rest

That's fine - if you're not interested "look away now".

But please don't presume to tell the rest of what should (and shouldn't) be of interest.

BugBear

I think I made it clear that I was not telling the rest what should be of interest but expressing my own viewpoint.

Oh really?:

What a load of self indulgent hype.

tolerances of 0.0015 are more than adequate for a wood plane and the suggestion that surface grinders render a wood plane compromised is rubbish.

Get real and get out there and do some woodwork instead of all this pointless anal discussion.

As good an example of telling other people what they should do as I've seen, and quite not very politely expressed to boot.

BugBear

 

[Modernist]

You don't give up easily do you BB?

I've just re-read page one and stand by my comments.

Others have pointed out the many precision items produced by grinding to far lower tolerances that .0015"

Toolmakers have been filing off peining for decades if not hundreds of years without any great difficulty.

The inherent instability of timber makes tolerances tighter than a certain limit meaningless in practical terms. It is likely that variations in planing technique would have greater impact on the finished surface.

There is not a single practical example of the issues anywhere in the thread.

Without any link to real outcomes these discussions which frequently occupy these forums are simply academic exercise.

Readers can accept or ignore my comments as they wish if they find the presence of non-believers uncomfortable.

The same readers may be surprised to learn that I am, in fact, a plane enthusiast with a range of 20 or so to cover most jobs. The difference is I am focussed on practical outcomes. I have frequently published pictures of such outcomes, and problems, on woodwork forums.

 

[bugbear]

You don't give up easily do you BB?

I wasn't aware it was an arm wrestling contest.

I don't suppose I'll persuade you to buy a Holtey (Karl! I'd want commission), and I find it difficult to believe that you'll stop me admiring Karl's work. But on we go...

There is not a single practical example of the issues anywhere in the thread.

Without any link to real outcomes these discussions which frequently occupy these forums are simply academic exercise.

Absolutely - I think Karl is simply (!) trying to make the most perfect planes he can, by eliminating all "issues", even where the issues are very minor indeed.

On the cost front, some of Karl design features have quite marginal benefits, and quite high costs. This is in the nature of the normal price/performance curve as one approaches 100% of what is possible.

I have no doubt there are many planing tasks where the overkill performance of a Holtey, (or even a LN) will make no difference what so ever.

I own (and enjoy using) a Bernina sewing machine. I have no doubt that every task I've ever put it to could have been performed by a far more "practical" machine, but I do get a kick out the sound (lack of!) that the precision made engineering makes when I use it.

Neccessary? - Hell no!

Glorious? - Yes, I think so.

BugBear

 

[Racers]

Hi,

If we had never strived to improve things we would all be still rooting around in the mud, its one of our best traits, in my humble opinion.


Pete

 

[Mikey R]

Since the cost is a big part of the debate - just out of interest, does anyone know what the resale value of one of Karls planes is? Does it depreciate significantly?

 

[bugbear]

Since the cost is a big part of the debate - just out of interest, does anyone know what the resale value of one of Karls planes is? Does it depreciate significantly?

I've seen a few come through Trinders, but buyers seems to be keepers.

Which may (in itself) say something.

BugBear

 

[Racers]

Hi, Mikey

unfortunately not, they are still not very many about so they don't depreciate, the ones i have seen o Ebay go for nearly the orignal price or more. come on Carl flood the market :wink:

Pete

 

[Karl]

come on Carl flood the market :wink:

Pete

At 200 hours labour each, I doubt he could :shock:

Cheers

Karl

 

[Racers]

He could if he let his standards slip :wink: :wink: :wink:

Pete

 

[woodbloke]

He could if he let his standards slip :wink: :wink: :wink:

Pete

...but then it wouldn't be a true Holtey - Rob

 

[Mikey R]

So if a Holtey plane doesnt depreciate, then the car analogy doesnt hold either.

And its not even like a classic car, that needs constant attention otherwise it rots.

 

[ivan]

Of course wood moves; that's why parts get cut roughly to size and stacked for a bit. After they've settled you can do a bit of precision planing, and mark out some joints, and cut and assemble them. The wood may move again afterwards. No one is suggesting it makes sense to attempt to size your furniture project to a couple of thou!

I'm sure, if you're lucky, a LN No4 will take a 1 thou shaving without any sole flattening. If you buy a longer plane, it may not, as the casting may have moved after leaving the factory. Mine had. Even stress relieved cast iron continues to move, and Clifton actually says so with every plane it sells. One of LN's DVDs with young master Charlesworth points out every LN shoulder plane needs flattening, as the body is ground without a blade under pressure from the spinwheel (which distorts the sole by a couple of thou so it won't cut). This probably applies to all the rebate planes too.