Juuma Vs Lie Nielsen Rebate (Rabbet) Block Planes?

[Dionysios]

In regards of the OP question about the knickers.

I prefer a knife line because it’s deeper and better defined compared to the line produced by the plane knickers (the Stanley 13-50 has spear shaped knickers btw).

Also the knife line is usually already there as a reference to setup the plane.

On top of that you have to make sure that the knickers are sharp enough when needed and this adds quite some extra time on the tool setting and apparently one or two more cutting edges that have to be regularly maintained.

On the other hand everyone (?) has a sharp marking knife close to hand and a square.

And now a bit of rant

@Inspector: The example with Ferrari (and any car maker in general) is completely irrelevant. All new cars have patented designs and they are replaced by new models way before the patent expires. When the patent expires (industrial patents last 20 years) the market has changed so much that it’s pointless to produce an almost exact copy of an old car.

On other goods though like medicines, tools, food products (if I remember well corn flakes, instant coffee etc. were once patented) when a patent expires many other companies are introducing their own versions at lower prices since the high cost for R&D doesn’t apply to them.

In the past Record tried to extend the patent of their woodworking vices by making changes to the design while at the same time it copied the Stanley planes.

I have noticed recently a bunch of various Tite-Mark style marking gauges, from Chinese manufacturers, in the market and that makes me think that the Tite-Mark’s patent has expired, since there were no similar marking gauges offered in the past.

Also the Chinese manufacturers (the ones who strive to make quality tools) don’t try to fool anyone that they are buying LN. Their products are clearly branded and they just claim that they are as good as the LN ones (or almost as good). I have two block planes made by Quangsheng and the built quality and attention to detail are top notch (I still prefer the traditional carbon steel for edge tools though).

 

[mark w]

LN are definitely NOT sourcing castings from Quangsheng/Luban! Quangsheng/Luban are making the castings from moulds of LN planes. That is why they can make a similar plane so much more cheaply. If you purchase their planes, you support their infringement of LN efforts.

Regards from Perth

Derek

You took the words out of my mouth Derek. I couldn't agree more.

 

[TRITON]

Pretty similar I agree, but it needs a nicker. Rebate planes need a nicker, especially for cross grain work.

Edit tbh is was tl:dr but I see the whole nicker thing has been long discussed

 

[vaj]

You're entitled to your view Derek, but I have tried only to show that the issues in play are wider and more nuanced than is implied in reactionary LN good/Chinese bad responses.

There's no point in my trying to justify buying the Juuma rabbet block plane. I'll be happy if it turns out to be good but it could turn out otherwise.

Having started the thread in all innocence I've no more to say on what it turns out is a long since well stirred hornets' nest...

 

[vaj]

On nickers. I can definitely see Dionysios that they could be fiddly to use in the sort of scenario I have in mind. As in taking a skim off a wide tenon.

The nicker would be in use for those cuts tight against the shoulder, but would ideally be retracted for cuts away from it.

I'll definitely have a play with a knife before investing the time to fit the nickers.

I have a couple of no handle nice left and right single bevel marking knives which will go tight against even a deep shoulder - they stared life as a pair of these: Bevel Point Paring Knife All Steel (the steel in them by the way is not the greatest, but they work)

 

[Trafalgar]

Hey, your copy of my copy is illegal....

 

[Jacob]

..... As in taking a skim off a wide tenon.

....

is this what these expensive "high end" rebate block planes are for? I often wonder!
Personally I'd do it with low end cheap tools such as a paring chisel or a Stanley 78. I never use the nickers they are more trouble than they are worth - just another of those many failed "good ideas" which you get with "innovative" tools

 

[Adam W.]

There will always be people who will happily buy the LN planes over the Chinese copies.

If you want to support Lie-Nielsen, that's great and if you're happy with Chinese tools, that's great too. It's a personal choice after all, but don't complain when your job goes east.

 

[Dionysios]

I believe that people will buy the best they can afford (unless you are Ebeneezer Scrooge). Unfortunately this for many people means that they will have to look at products from low labour cost markets (it’s not only China).

It has absolutely nothing to do if you want to actually support someone or not.

I don’t exactly see the point of trying to make people feel guilty because they bought a cheaper alternative, using laughable arguments, because that’s what they could afford.

If you check the facts, first the jobs went east or south or wherever and then the market was flooded with imported cheaper alternatives, not the other way around.

 

[Jacob]

I believe that people will buy the best they can afford

I try to buy just what I need. Can't see any use for these pricey little block rebate planes they don't do anything which I can't do by other means and often more easily.

(unless you are Ebeneezer Scrooge).

Yep thats me!

Unfortunately this for many people means that they will have to look at products from low labour cost markets (it’s not only China).

2nd hand UK market. Still flooded with old tools from the golden age

It has absolutely nothing to do if you want to actually support someone or not.

But need to be a fan of LN, LV, otherwise there's little point.

I don’t exactly see the point of trying to make people feel guilty because they bought a cheaper alternative, using laughable arguments, because that’s what they could afford.

Guilt doesn't come into it!

If you check the facts, first the jobs went east or south or wherever and then the market was flooded with imported cheaper alternatives, not the other way around.

We've been importing and undercutting our own producers for at least 500 years or more

 

[Adam W.]

I believe that people will buy the best they can afford (unless you are Ebeneezer Scrooge). Unfortunately this for many people means that they will have to look at products from low labour cost markets (it’s not only China).

It has absolutely nothing to do if you want to actually support someone or not.

I don’t exactly see the point of trying to make people feel guilty because they bought a cheaper alternative, using laughable arguments, because that’s what they could afford.

If you check the facts, first the jobs went east or south or wherever and then the market was flooded with imported cheaper alternatives, not the other way around.

It's entirely up to you what you spend your money on. As I said, if you like Chinese planes, buy Chinese planes.

If you feel guilty about it, that's your own personal issue to deal with by yourself.

 

[Homeless Squirrel]

T

 

[Orraloon]

I am sure that with a bit of a fettle and a sharpen the Juuma would take a skim off a tenon if thats what it's wanted for and at 72 euros not 265. That said there are like Jacob pointed out other tools that can be used to do that. I have used a chisel, a 78, a shoulder plane and my current favorite the shinto rasp. Its Japanese by the way so nobody should feel embarassed owning one.
Regards
John

 

[vaj]

Hi John. Ta for that. There's for the record no question of embarassment here.

I'll as I said post an update when I've had a chance to check out and set up the Juuma.

Time will tell what it gets used for beyond the immediate thought. (trimming into corners on the large tenons on an upcoming project)

I'll ease my way into rebate planes - it will depend on funds and on the projects that come up. I have a router table and spindle moulder and don't unless the need arises plan on cutting longer and deeper rebates by hand - but can see myself finishing and tuning fits with planes.

One of the difficulties here in Ireland is that while good used tools do come up for sale at times we don't really have the flea market/boot sale type deal seen elsewhere - which with working in isolation means there are few opportunities to try or to see tools in action at low cost. Our very damp climate doesn't help either- tools left unprotected in an unheated workshop rust badly.

Buying new has its pitfalls too. Speciality stuff is often not stocked locally, so purchases tend to be a hope for the best mail order deal. Rabbet planes are a case in point - they tend to be expensive and it's not immediately obvious what the limits and capabilities of the various types are.

Veritas for example do a very nice looking pair of skew rabbet planes but at a cost of around €700 for the pair by the time fence accessories etc are added in: VERITAS Rabbet Planes | FINE TOOLS. They also do a pair of skew rabbet block planes at not much less and a 'jack rabbet' plane.

Is it their intention that the well equipped woodworker should buy all of these, or does their functionality overlap to a significant degree?

Paul Sellers by the way has a practically informative and nicely written piece on No. 78 planes here - it came up while I was poking around last night: Rebate Plane No1—The #78 Filletster Plane - Paul Sellers' Blog

PS I have Shinto rasps too and enjoy the way they manage to combine a degree of precision (for a rasp) with the ability to shift quite a lot of material.

 

[Jacob]

Hi John. Ta for that. There's for the record no question of embarassment here.

I'll as I said post an update when I've had a chance to check out and set up the Juuma.

Time will tell what it gets used for beyond the immediate thought. (trimming into corners on the large tenons on an upcoming project)

I'll ease my way into rebate planes - it will depend on funds and on the projects that come up. I have a router table and spindle moulder and don't unless the need arises plan on cutting longer and deeper rebates by hand - but can see myself finishing and tuning fits with planes.

One of the difficulties here in Ireland is that while good used tools do come up for sale at times we don't really have the flea market/boot sale type deal seen elsewhere - which with working in isolation means there are few opportunities to try or to see tools in action at low cost. Our very damp climate doesn't help either- tools left unprotected in an unheated workshop rust badly.

Buying new has its pitfalls too. Speciality stuff is often not stocked locally, so purchases tend to be a hope for the best mail order deal. Rabbet planes are a case in point - they tend to be expensive and it's not immediately obvious what the limits and capabilities of the various types are.

Veritas for example do a very nice looking pair of skew rabbet planes but at a cost of around €700 for the pair by the time fence accessories etc are added in: VERITAS Rabbet Planes | FINE TOOLS. They also do a pair of skew rabbet block planes at not much less and a 'jack rabbet' plane.

Is it their intention that the well equipped woodworker should buy all of these, or does their functionality overlap to a significant degree?

Paul Sellers by the way has a practically informative and nicely written piece on No. 78 planes here - it came up while I was poking around last night: Rebate Plane No1—The #78 Filletster Plane - Paul Sellers' Blog

PS I have Shinto rasps too and enjoy the way they manage to combine a degree of precision (for a rasp) with the ability to shift quite a lot of material.

If you want to do rebates the old woodies are good, very usable and cheap. 78 is very good too. The various add-ons of fence, nicker, depth stop are less use than you'd imagine and quite easily done without.
I can't see any point at all in £700 for the LV. Just for the well heeled amateur IMHO.

 

[vaj]

Ta J. Do you happen to know if the Stanley 78s or Irwin 778s fairly widely on offer new at less than €100 new are respectable? Experience of other tools in this space suggests caution..

Most of the recommendations for the 78/778 seem to come from people with old planes which presumably have a decent iron, are accurately machined, have non-plastic handles etc.

Might the Record 778 have a better fence?

For sure the 78/778 format looks as though it should handle a very wide range of tasks, and even older examples seem to be on offer from tool dealers for fairly moderate money.

Cost effectiveness it seems to me is important if possible in this sort of tool because it's not going to be used every day.

I've been trying to make sense of the types of rebate planes generally on offer.

The Veritas rebating jack plane seems intended for heavy work/removing a lot of material/long pieces by hand, with the various fences opening up some options for funny angles etc. It perhaps is intended to double as a straightforward jack when needed? Definitely not the tool for getting into an awkward corner, and expensive especially with all the gizmos added.

The rebating block planes are perhaps in a similar space but for use when removing much smaller quantities of material and in the case of shorter cuts. They potentially also function as a stock block plane - and in the case of the Juuma/Luban/Wood River variants (presuming acceptable manufacturing quality) seem potentially cost effective.

The 78/778 format looks very promising given it's ability to be set up in bull nose form to get into corners, and to work with the fence on either side. I could imagine using one to do ship lap boards by hand for example - although I'd tend towards doing them by machine. It'd be handy for smaller jobs though - minimal set up.

The various ECE Emmerich rebating offerings in wood look promising - cost effective and get good reviews: Rabbet Planes, Chisel Planes | FINE TOOLS Might there (judging by the linked page) be a supply problem?

The bevel iron versions available in some cases look very nice and presumably have some advantages (easier cutting, pulls to fence etc) but bring the problem of needing left and right handed versions to cut in both directions - and attendant cost.

Shoulder planes are really intended for end grain - less than ideal for heavier and face cuts. Also less stable due to the narrow base..

Does anybody know better?

 

[Inspector]

I don't know better but suggest a rebating block plane is not necessarily an all round block plane. The corners of the blade in the open side/mouth can bite the fingers when you hold the plane one handed. Fine if you like putting a little blood, sweat and tears into your work. Standard block plane with its closed sides is safer.

Pete

 

[Jacob]

I don't know better but suggest a rebating block plane is not necessarily an all round block plane. The corners of the blade in the open side/mouth can bite the fingers when you hold the plane one handed. Fine if you like putting a little blood, sweat and tears into your work. Standard block plane with its closed sides is safer.

Pete

Agree.
Old ones aren't common, presumably because the few earlier attempts at making them were not popular.
The basic prob with these back catalogue tools is that if they weren't found to be useful back then, most likely they won't be any more useful now. I take them all with a pinch of salt! They'll still sell a few, however useless they are.
Record made some excellent rebate planes, and always excellent quality. Some models have adjustable mouths and can be used for quite crude work for which they were not intended, such as cleaning up the face of tenons. I use a Record 073 (adjustable) and a 311 (not adjustable but has exchangeable nose )

 

[Jacob]

...

Might the Record 778 have a better fence?

No it's worse than the Stanley 78. Two bars look good but you can cut your fingers on the exposed bade - the single bar on the 78 covers it.

For sure the 78/778 format looks as though it should handle a very wide range of tasks, and even older examples seem to be on offer from tool dealers for fairly moderate money.

Yes they were/are very popular. Very widely used and misused. Loads of them around cheap, often with attachments missing because they tend to get left off, the attachments aren't as useful as they look, the bare plane is very functional.

Cost effectiveness it seems to me is important if possible in this sort of tool because it's not going to be used every day.

I've been trying to make sense of the types of rebate planes generally on offer.

If in doubt choose the cheapest.
If no good you can try again, without having broken the bank.

 

[vaj]

I've seen people complain about nicking themselves on rebating planes - and have done so myself on a shoulder plane. I've seen others talk of buying one as an all rounder.

Pays your money I guess but my preference is definitely for a closed model for general use too. (I have a Veritas)

If in doubt choose the cheapest.
If no good you can try again, without having broken the bank.

I tend to agree Jacob in this relatively low cost space provided the tool works as required. The Juuma rebating block plane hopefully fits that bill - and it's not going to be asked to do serious rebating work anyway.

Thanks all for the input - I wasn't previously familiar with the 78. I've no immediate requirement, but will keep an eye out for a nice one going forward