Just to stir the pot, has anyone noticed...

[Blackswanwood]

Or to do with Workshops

Yeah - we’ve not even got onto the way the Princess of Wales sharpens chisels …

 

[stuart little]

All of them are 'commies', sailing under false flag, especially the 'Sadist' mayor of - oh forgot city name! IMHO, which means nowt, anyhow.

 

[Glenhyrst]

Robert Colville in today's Sunday Times gives a plausible account of the relationships between the effectiveness and costs of Govt actions and outcomes that has relevance to much of the discussion above. Sadly, it seems that spending more money on a shambles, whether paid for by the filthy rich or the dirt poor is unlikely to make a significant improvement. No idea of an answer. We - people - go for seemingly simple solutions to complex problems. And so we get politicians who are and have to be economical with the truth, if they want to get elected ro re-elected. We're doomed! But it could be worse!!

 

[DerekJohn]

Blair/Brown Government saved the NHS, waiting lists went from an all time high to an all time low, they also brought in the minimum wage, just two things I can remember off the top of my head.
We had just had years and years of Tory rule and our country was at rock bottom, history repeating.
The Tory system of running down public services, lowering taxes for the rich, (who by the way benefit most from tax cuts)
Doesn't work, history demonstrates this.

very well said niallY..Running a country is very difficult and no party could possibly have all the answers. I' m 79 so have lived through drama/failure/catastrophe's under all partys. and in my opinion it;s just a game we play regularly voting pretending we make a difference. For the vast mass of us it makes little difference in the long term, we swing in the wind and wind up where we are. The rich will always be richer and the poorer poor. Take no notice of the pundits, vote if you want to think you make a difference or don;t and let the machine roll on. Just get on with your life , have a few chuckles along the way.
Who said, Democracy is a terrible method. to run a country---but it's the best we've come up with!
Focus on your immediate life a family, friends. Things outside of that will happen and you'll cope. Have a laugh, be happy. If another war starts THEY'll let you soon enough. I

I'm 75 so I have seen what you have seen, although many of our vintage were not 'seeing'. Where I disagree with you is "we must do something other than saying Oh dear etc.". My book "The Normal Curve" (soon to be renamed and republished on Amazon as "British Politics is broken") proposes a possible solution - radicle yes but I think most people, if they read it, might agree with my analysis and a few, hopefully, might even start to do something about it...

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Privatisation is exactly what they have been doing and it's been a dismal and expensive failure; NHS, Rail,* you name it.
NHS was seen as super efficient with low levels of management, before it started being "re organised" for the benefit of private enterprises.

*and the Post Office of course - how could I forget! Now being broken up and destroyed by privatisation. Easy to forget that the Post Office was usually the most important and well used building in towns, villages, cities in Britain. A hugely valuable and highly visible service to the people. Now relegated to a small back-counter in a supermarket somewhere, if you can find it - just look for an angry queue and unhappy staff!

Facts are tedious:

• Labour increased NHS spend significantly - mainly due to PFI (privatisation??) deals. These apparently totalled £80bn - £55bn still remains to be paid! Borrowing money, albeit to fund better services, still needs to be repaid.
• The Post Office is a legacy business. Ofcom considering reduction to its delivery obligations due to massive reduction in letter volumes make it uneconomic. PO have failed to compete effectively with the private sector on parcels - high cost and low growth.

I know some (particularly elderly) still value traditional PO services. No problem with this but call it what it is - a social service not a postal service and fund it accordingly.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

There are some 700 PFI contracts with a capital value of £57bn and with some £160bn still to be paid out for the use and maintenance of these assets. The contracts range from roads to student accommodation, prisons, military equipment, and street lighting, with schools and hospitals prominent among them – there are 219 PFI schools and 160 hospitals and acute health facilities ...

 

[evildrome]

NHS was seen as super efficient ...


It never was.

The facts beg to differ.

 

[RogerS]

.....
"from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs, " sounds like a fair target? a bit idealistic perhaps.
....

"We'll keep the red Flag flying here". That didn't work very well in the UUSR, did it ?

 

[mark w]

Labour inherited a fairly sound economy and blew it. They saved the NHS? We are still paying the bills. The minimum wage was good in principle, but as I forecast at the time it has now become a target. It also works against people earning a few quid above it - every time a wage increase is applied for the firm will say sorry, our wage bill has already gone up too much as the national minimum wage has been increased (I know this). The tax take increases when the top rate is lowered.
I am no fan of this inept government, by the way.

A fairly sound economy, really? Our country was on its knees as it always is after a period of Tory rule. They did save the NHS and what bills are you referring to?
I'm not sure why we would have any unpaid bills from back then, there seems to be enough tax payers money to pay companies affiliated to the Tory Party.
Your analysis of the minimum wage is a bit ropey. Without it most companies would be paying far less with virtually nothing to persuade them to pay more, if the minimum wage goes up, workers have had a wage increase, the minimum wage does work, it's a minimum wage.

 

[J-G]

It's all well and good saying pay more tax but we wouldn't need to pay more tax if so much money was not wasted in the first place.
The first thing that comes to my mind when Blair's name comes up is not how good they were but the guy who started an illegal war and walked out of office when he knew things were going t**s up and a very rich man and handed to Brown who seemed a bumbling fool, if memory serves wasn't it Brown that sold a big chunk of our Gold reserves when it was at the lowest price?

Not only that -- he pre-advertised the fact, which further depressed the price which was already in rapid decline!!!

An absolute pillock!

 

[Jacob]

The facts beg to differ.

Exactly. The NHS was see as exemplary and highly efficient in spite of having miraculously low levels of management.
The problems of the NHS are all down to deliberate underfunding since about 1979, in moves to privatise and make money for the boys, whilst lowering expenditure and quality of service, to make privatisation seem like the solution to a manufactured problem. Ditto all public services, from pot holes in the road upwards.
Think tory think potholes in everything!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

A fairly sound economy, really? Our country was on its knees as it always is after a period of Tory rule. They did save the NHS and what bills are you referring to?
I'm not sure why we would have any unpaid bills from back then, there seems to be enough tax payers money to pay companies affiliated to the Tory Party.
Your analysis of the minimum wage is a bit ropey. Without it most companies would be paying far less with virtually nothing to persuade them to pay more, if the minimum wage goes up, workers have had a wage increase, the minimum wage does work, it's a minimum wage.

If you actually read posts you know you'll disagree with you'd know -
There are some 700 PFI contracts with a capital value of £57bn and with some £160bn still to be paid out for the use and maintenance of these assets.

and a better one - (government figures 2010) In November 2010 the UK government released spending figures showing that the current total payment obligation for PFI contracts in the UK was £267 billion.

 

[selectortone]

The problems of the NHS are all down to deliberate underfunding since about 1979, in moves to privatise and make money for the boys, whilst lowering expenditure and quality of service, to make privatisation seem like the solution to a manufactured problem

Agree 100%

I was in hospital this summer and the treatment I got from the doctors and nurses was fantastic. The nurses, in particular were amazing, despite being obviously under-staffed and continuously pulled every which way. I have no idea how they do what they do, day after day. I wouldn't last one shift.

The NHS is being privatised by stealth. When I thanked my consultant for everything they had done for me and said to him "God bless the NHS", he gave me a rueful smile and said "Yes, what's left of it..."

 

[mark w]

If you actually read posts you know you'll disagree with you'd know -
There are some 700 PFI contracts with a capital value of £57bn and with some £160bn still to be paid out for the use and maintenance of these assets.

and a better one - (government figures 2010) In November 2010 the UK government released spending figures showing that the current total payment obligation for PFI contracts in the UK was £267 billion.

PFI contracts cover a broad spectrum of things, the Tories were not shy of using this type of funding and it peaked under them. My point still stands, Labour saved the NHS. The means it had at the time were these contracts, my other point still stands, instead of blowing money on their donaters and tax cuts for the rich the Tories could have paid these debts down, don't forget they've been in power since Brown. Austerity brought in by the Lib Dems and Tories have not helped the situation.

 

[Jacob]

PFI contracts cover a broad spectrum of things, the Tories were not shy of using this type of funding and it peaked under them. My point still stands, Labour saved the NHS. The means it had at the time were these contracts, my other point still stands, instead of blowing money on their donaters and tax cuts for the rich the Tories could have paid these debts down, don't forget they've been in power since Brown.

since 1979 more like. Blair/Brown were just a blip and they lost their way.

Austerity brought in by the Lib Dems and Tories have not helped the situation.

More than that - austerity was a bogus remedy and in fact the cause of the current decline.

 

[StephenArfer]

I'm 79 this year, and I have had quite a few experiences of the NHS, and the care and attention of NHS staff over the years. The NHS is the only reason I made it to my ripe old age. Nursing staff generally do a fantastic job under continuous pressure and I feel great respect and sympathy for them.

Why is the nursing profession in the NHS so short of staff? I personally believe that nursing training at colleges in the UK should be totally funded by the exchequer, so that those that see it as a calling do not have the prospect of living in poverty and debt for several years, and then paid a salary and status which does not reflect their their training and dedication.

I also appreciate the expertise of medical staff, but can anyone tell me how it works that a NHS consultant surgeon can spend a significant proportion of his time at a private hospital whilst building a huge NHS waiting list? If they spend say, three days aggregate at a private hospital, do they also get paid a salary by the NHS?

I'm a bit intolerant of junior doctors who claim 13 years of salary erosion. How many have been qualified for 13 years? If they are still a junior after that time, perhaps there's a good reason?

Since WW2 the population of the UK seems to have grown out of all proportion to the birth rate and there are now many more of us old people than there were post-war. If you made it to retirement back then you were doing well!. The NHS has become hugely more capable during the intervening years. Technology has resulted in advances in medical and surgical expertise and practices which have saved lives which would otherwise be lost.

Can we solve the problem it by "stopping the boats", or similar political sound bytes that we hear continuously from the government. If only it were that easy.

Fortunately I can still return to the "good old days" once I'm playing in my little workshop, or out in our countryside with my camera. Not too far from my car though nowadays!

 

[Furniture Restorer]

Labour didn't create the NHS. They merely appropriated and renamed the private system that was already there. From inception, most GPs and all consultants were freelancers who are contracted by the NHS to carry out surgeries on their behalf. All the medicines, machines, ancillary equipment and sundries are supplied by private industry and always have been. The NHS makes nothing that it uses. Not even a paperclip. In reality, it's always been completely dependant on private industry and that will never change.

The public ownership myth is just that. The only part of the NHS we own outright is the bill to pay for it all. That's not to say the NHS isn't a worthy institution. It's about the only tangible benefit the people of Great Britain earned for fighting WWII. They got precious little else.

They never built up the health fund when it was established and started paying out from day one have been playing catch-up ever since. And that doesn't look like it's going to change anytime soon.

We need to get over the myth that the NHS is the envy of the world. It isn't by long shot. There are far better services elsewhere that are better managed and get better results on far less than the NHS gets each year. But they are pathologically opposed to the introduction of any efficiencies or cost-cutting measures as they see this as the thin end of the wedge to full privatisation. Which technically they always have been as I said.

I know this because I have quite a few relatives working in the service. I've noticed that over the last ten years the emphasis seems to have moved from offering healthcare to ensuring they are fully DEI compliant. It's all they ever talk about.

I have suggested to my relatives, that seeing as the NHS has morphed from a national to an international service we should seriously consider charging other countries an International Insurance Stamp to help pay for the extra demand being heaped on it. They think it's a good idea. It would certainly be radical.

 

[sploo]

I'm a bit intolerant of junior doctors who claim 13 years of salary erosion. How many have been qualified for 13 years? If they are still a junior after that time, perhaps there's a good reason?

It's a rather odd quirk of the medical system that, until you get a consultant position, you are classed as a junior doctor. I don't know if it works like that in other countries, but it's quite normal here to be "junior" for a long time. Incidentally, you can't be a junior forever; if you fail to get a consultant position within a certain period of time then you end up in a sort of "zombie limbo" position as a doctor.

I don't know if any juniors are claiming that they personally have suffered 13 years of pay erosion; I thought the point was that the role has suffered that erosion for a long time.

Whilst I wouldn't credit our governments over the last decade to have had the smarts to specifically plan this: repeatedly not matching pay rises to inflation is quite clever - in that, at some point years down the line when staff start to complain that they've suffered some huge percentage drop it looks as though they're being entirely unreasonable in asking for such a large percentage increase. Of course, it's simply the compound effect of many years of what would have been reasonable increases (that weren't given).

 

[Jacob]

...... There are far better services elsewhere that are better managed and get better results on far less than the NHS gets each year.

Really? Where are these marvellous institutions?
We hear more about American alternatives than anything else but they are notoriously expensive and innefficient

But they are pathologically opposed to the introduction of any efficiencies or cost-cutting measures as they see this as the thin end of the wedge to full privatisation. Which technically they always have been as I said.

The NHS IS the efficient cost cutting alternative to private health care.

https://nhsfunding.info/cure/can-we...company bureaucracy,co-payments to deal with.
"By the end of World War II, the concept of an integrated, state-funded hospital service had become established and, in 1948, the newly-elected Labour (socialist) government created a National Health Service (NHS) as one of a series of welfare reforms designed to guarantee basic levels of personal and social security."
https://assets.publishing.service.g...The-history-and-development-of-the-UK-NHS.pdf

 

[Phil Pascoe]

View attachment 174218

PFI contracts cover a broad spectrum of things, the Tories were not shy of using this type of funding and it peaked under them. My point still stands, Labour saved the NHS. The means it had at the time were these contracts, my other point still stands, instead of blowing money on their donaters and tax cuts for the rich the Tories could have paid these debts down, don't forget they've been in power since Brown. Austerity brought in by the Lib Dems and Tories have not helped the situation.

It did not peak under them.