January Competition Project Discussion

[CHJ]

Nothing wrong or particularly difficult about Oak, sounds more like wrong tool presentation or blunt cutting edge, or a combination of both.

Sounds as though you are presenting the cutting edge in a straight shear mode and taking a chopping action across the end grain which is ramming the tool against the rest.

You would not expect to cut through an oak or any other wood stave straight across the grain with a pen knife, but you would achieve it by slicing through along the grain.

You need to present your gouge so that you are slicing the wood not chopping it.

Just think how you carve a piece of meat by sliding the knife not chopping, you need to achieve the same motion, but in this case the rotating wood (meat) is the predominant mover not the knife.

EDIT: I re-read and saw your comment about changing to a bowl gouge.

A Bowl Gouge is the Only tool you should be rounding a conventional orientation bowl blank with because of the end grain presentation. For personal safety reasons DO NOT be tempted to use a spindle gouge or the like.

 

[Bodrighy]

You do have a way with words Chas :lol:

Pete

 

[Hudson Carpentry]

I did wonder if my tools are blunt, not had much use from new and turned some hardwood a few days ago with fast results so disregarded this as the answer, still it don't mean there not blunt.

I was pandering whether it was the way i was presenting the tool. My tool rest don't adjust very high. It will not go much higher then the centre point. Could this be the issue, do i need a rest that will go higher when turning 4" blanks?. I always angle the tool to follow the same angle as the rest.

 

[Hudson Carpentry]

EDIT: I re-read and saw your comment about changing to a bowl gouge.

A Bowl Gouge is the Only tool you should be rounding a conventional orientation bowl blank with because of the end grain presentation. For personal safety reasons DO NOT be tempted to use a spindle gouge or the like.

Right so its wrong tool selection as well :lol:

 

[CHJ]

You do have a way with words Chas :lol:

Pete

I find caressing achieves far more satisfying results than brute force every time, :wink:

 

[Bodrighy]

You do have a way with words Chas :lol:

Pete

I find caressing achieves far more satisfying results than brute force every time, :wink:

You old dog you :mrgreen:

Pete

 

[CHJ]

I did wonder if my tools are blunt, not had much use from new .......

With any wood, and especially hard woods you should be be prepared to sharpen the tool every few minutes if necessary let alone days.

Particularly when taking the last few finishing cuts, you may even have to sharpen every pass in difficult wood situations.

As tool presentation improves, and everybody has their own preferred angles and cutting height combination, it's a case of practicing until it comes good for you; you will find you can prolong the times between sharpenings by slightly altering the contact point on the curve of the tools.
If you think the tool may need sharpening then you have more than likely already passed the point when you should have done so.

 

[Hudson Carpentry]

I did wonder if my tools are blunt, not had much use from new .......

With any wood, and especially hard woods you should be be prepared to sharpen the tool every few minutes if necessary let alone days.

Particularly when taking the last few finishing cuts, you may even have to sharpen every pass in difficult wood situations.

As tool presentation improves, and everybody has their own preferred angles and cutting height combination, it's a case of practicing until it comes good for you; you will find you can prolong the times between sharpenings by slightly altering the contact point on the curve of the tools.
If you think the tool may need sharpening then you have more than likely already passed the point when you should have done so.

I had another go after sharpening my bowl gouge, no luck. I do feel im not going to have any luck with what for my lathe, is a big piece, until i get a higher tool rest. Your point about chipping and ramming seems true to what is happening, the angle of the tool at its current rest height wouldn't allow the tool to slice. If i alter my angle the blank is just touching a smooth part of the gouge and not cutting at all. As you say i could only use the bowl gouge for end grain turning, it only cuts if the tool is parallel to the floor, at which is chipping and causing that ramming you described. I fear lowering the rest would mean im cutting from under the turning, which common sense tells me is unsafe and cutting wouldn't be effective?

 

[Blister]

I did wonder if my tools are blunt, not had much use from new .......

With any wood, and especially hard woods you should be be prepared to sharpen the tool every few minutes if necessary let alone days.

Particularly when taking the last few finishing cuts, you may even have to sharpen every pass in difficult wood situations.

As tool presentation improves, and everybody has their own preferred angles and cutting height combination, it's a case of practicing until it comes good for you; you will find you can prolong the times between sharpenings by slightly altering the contact point on the curve of the tools.
If you think the tool may need sharpening then you have more than likely already passed the point when you should have done so.

I had another go after sharpening my bowl gouge, no luck. I do feel im not going to have any luck with what for my lathe, is a big piece, until i get a higher tool rest. Your point about chipping and ramming seems true to what is happening, the angle of the tool at its current rest height wouldn't allow the tool to slice. If i alter my angle the blank is just touching a smooth part of the gouge and not cutting at all. As you say i could only use the bowl gouge for end grain turning, it only cuts if the tool is parallel to the floor, at which is chipping and causing that ramming you described. I fear lowering the rest would mean im cutting from under the turning, which common sense tells me is unsafe and cutting wouldn't be effective?

Photos of your set up and cutting angles will help a lot :wink:

 

[miles_hot]

Others will no doubt correct.me.if wrong but I thought that the bowl gauge should be pointing roughly at the centre line or above it (for instance I sometimes.use it well above the centre for a very fine sheer cut). One thing to get your head around is that tje level can rub with the handle in any number of orientations, anything from the handle right down to almost horizontal. I think you're still in the coughing stage where you have a very interrupted cut and it van be very hard to feel any rubbing, or otherwise, of the bevel so the thing is to look at the tool and the way that it is being presented. This can even be done with the lathe off - position the tool on tje wood and rotate tje wood a little by hand; you should be able to see a small shaving coming off - play with tje angles and see what is working and easy and then remember that when you switch on the lathe. Is there anyone near you or are you travelling anywhere soon so someone can give you a quick lesson - if you're near me.soon I'd be happy to attempt to help but there's far netters than me out there!

 

[Bodrighy]

I rarely if ever us a tool above the centre. The rest should be at a height that allows the tool to be presented at or below the centre of the wood so that the wood is coming down onto the cutting edge. What is more important is that the edge of the tool should always be fed into the wood, Bevel first then the edge so that you are getting a good slicing action. With practice this becomes an automatic action so hardly noticeable. I have never seen or heard of anyone working with the tool above centre and to me that sounds like a recipe for disaster. The tool should be held against your body and moved by moving your body, not your arms and this isn't really possible if it is above centre as you are having to hold the handle up in the air. This is one of the reasons why cheap tools, often with short handles aren't much use. Try and watch some videos on You Tube of some of the pros working if this doesn't make sense and you will see that they all have they handle down low and angled up at or just below the centre of the wood.

Pete

 

[Pvt_Ryan]

Bodrighy,

The first link in this post shows what I think is above centre turning with a skew, though I may be mistaken.

I am not trying to contradict you as I am as green as they come to woodturning, I mention this only because I happened to watch it just before I read your post and thought you may have some interest.

PS. If you happen to be the H&S officer in work don't watch it for fear you may have a coronary.

Regards,

Ryan

 

[Hudson Carpentry]

Thank you miles, you are a distance from me though. Im in Nottingham, Hucknall

 

[cambournepete]

The first link in this post shows what I think is above centre turning with a skew, though I may be mistaken.

I'm sure t'other Pete will respond later, but my 2 cents...
The skew is about the only standard turning tool you use with the rest above centre,and then not every time.
The man in that video is very skilled in using the skew chisel - that takes a great deal of practice and is not for the faint hearted

 

[Pvt_Ryan]

I must confess, I have only been playing about on the lathe with small turnings, the skew is my favourite tool (not sure why it just feels "right"), though it is so easy to get a dig in with it if your concentration lapses.

Think I've watched that video a dozen times now, can't keep my eyes off that shaving action..

 

[Hudson Carpentry]

Ah, this is where i have had conflicting. or mis understood advice. I did when i first got a lathe watch youtube videos of people explaining how to set the lathe up and use the different tools i brought. (not cheap ones. All Crown).

The way i understood them was to set up the tool rest so the angle of the rests point of contact meets the same angle on the turning blank. If you understand that. They also said to have the tool sitting on the rest in the same angle as the rests point of contact. This is how i have been doing things and mainly getting a nice slicing action.

Now anyone can make a video so ill more then happy to forget everything i have seen on youtube and just do what ever you guys tell me!

 

[Bodrighy]

The skew can be used on top of the wood as in the video with care but it is a planing action and very different to the usual way of using tools on a lathe, hence the problem a lot of people have with it. If you think about it, with the tool presented above centre the edge is being approached closer to the horizontal so you are more likely to dig in. if it is below centre then you are pushing up into the wood so have more control. It is much better felt than telt. Try running your lathe at a slower speed, about the 500 mark and doing both, see which you have most control with. Try on spindle work first. Personally I reckon every new turner should start with spindle work first not face work as you get a much better grasp of what the tools can do and your skill level grows much quicker but so many jump straight to bowls etc.

Pete

 

[Bodrighy]

You tube is fine for ideas and inspiration but as far as technique is concerned and safety I'd take it with a pinch of salt. There's a video on there somewhere of a guy turning a 10' log, about 3' diameter and using a chainsaw to rough it down. I am not sure if he has it above or below centre but wherever it is the man is a bloody liability as people will watch and think is cool. Get decent videos by accredited RPT members for technique tips, or get some lessons or join a club, don't follow you tube for technique. With practice you will find that you can do all sorts of things with your tools but sometimes you need to stop and ask yourself if it is safe. I rough small spindles from the square for crochet hooks with a 1" skew, I wouldn't show a new turner that one, I make my goblets using only a 3/8th spindle gouge turning the inside down to 6" deep and 3mm thick, again I would probably get a new turner using a bowl gouge or ring tool as it is safer. With practice you can hear and feel when something is safe. Whatever you do don't take risks as wood moving even at 500 rpm can hurt when it hits you DAMHIK

pete

 

[Blister]

I found this video on you tube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aL9DkfuC ... re=related

It shows the tool rest height and chisel height , at times the cutting edge is above center , but ends up dead on center where the nipple is

also it show a hollowing out technique ,

There are times when the chisel handle is held low and against the body , but as seen in the video times when it is not

Hope this helps :wink:

 

[miles_hot]

Thank you miles, you are a distance from me though. Im in Nottingham, Hucknall

I would suggest that you get in touch with Richard (member4274.html) who is pretty close to you and a damn good teacher - if you have a search on here you'll find the reports from people who have had some time with him. You may also find if you put a note out with a specific title that other local turners may make a similar offer to mine - I've certainly found this forum to be unstinting in help!

I have always found this stuff is so much easier to see (hence You Tube being an interesting resource - the only issue is knowing if the other person knows their arse from their elbow - expert village is especially crap) and even better is someone showing you!

Have fun

Miles