Is this a dangerous cut?

[Zeddedhed]

I'm interested in the opinion of the woodworking collective on an issue of safety.
The picture shows setup for machining a tongue on a piece of 25mm thick MDF 100mm wide.
There is no insert ring as it would catch on the cutter.
The cut is to be made by hand.

Opinions please.

By the way, don't assume I think this is ok.

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[Droogs]

I would still put an insert in, but routed to accomodate the bottomhalf of the cutter. just to be on the safe side and offer a continuous level surface

 

[PAC1]

There are several things that could be done to improve the situation:
1. A false bed made of MDF or ply giving full support to the material being machined, and
2. fit the Shaw guard, and
3. Use a Aigner safety device if machining short lengths to span the gap

 

[Jacob]

Yes to insert - make one from mdf?
Also - use shaw guards/ feathers etc and TWO PUSH-STICKS - there is no need for your fingers to come anywhere near the cutters.

 

[Zeddedhed]

Thanks for the answers guys.

Some more info - the workpiece is a rail for a door - I've got about 18 to do both sides so 36 passes of a 100mm workpiece.
The cut will be hand fed - fingers will be over 150mm away from the cutters.
Shaw guards won't work/will obscure the cut.
I don't have an Aigner device but I'll Google it for next time.
Last time I tried an MDF insert ring I found that the cutter revolving under it tended to lift it causing it to catch on the workpiece as it fed through.

The false bed idea seems to be the best way forward.

I've been debating the issue with a workmate and we both feel that the cut should be OK as the cutter isn't trying pull the work into the void - rather it will twist it away from the cutters. We both thin that it feels a bit iffy due to gaping hole where the insert ring would be.
The false bed fixes that issue nicely.

I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[blackrodd]

Two suggestions, make up another insert, for support, and you don't want any bits or debris down there, and going off like a bullet.
and square the fences to either the sliding mitre slot some moulders have,or the edge of the bed
Make a sliding top, with a fence screwed at 90 degrees to the moulding fence,same thickness as the rails.
and another fence underneath the top just made, parallel with the bed, Imagine a cross cutting sled, but cutting on the right hand side.as support, have a few practice runs before switching on, have several "bites" You're hands should be well out of the way.
You may want to cut the shoulder line with a knife, with that arrangement.
Regards Rodders

 

[MMUK]

Can you not rig up a mechanical clamp to guide the workpiece through? Something with an extended reach hand grip and a perspex cowl? Something you could just slide along the table up against the fence?

 

[Zeddedhed]

So I tried a false table and voila - safe, smooth and easy.

Thanks for the advice.


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[heimlaga]

To me that looks perfectly safe even without the false table.

However I like to have a guard of one kind or another above a head setup that cots on the upside of the workpiece. A pece of wood screwed to the false fence would have been a decent subsitute guard.

 

[morfa]

I have to ask, why couldn't you use push sticks? I'm a machine nubbin and I'm just curious.

Looking at the various videos of people doing silly stuff on youtube, 6" isn't far enough away from a blade to be safe. If it goes wrong that's still close enough to get hurt. That's why I'm asking the question.

 

[PAC1]

Morfa
If you work on the basis that the rule is that only thing that should get within 15" of a blade is the wood you are cutting and a push stick or two, you minimise the risk.

 

[Jacob]

I have to ask, why couldn't you use push sticks? I'm a machine nubbin and I'm just curious.

Looking at the various videos of people doing silly stuff on youtube, 6" isn't far enough away from a blade to be safe. If it goes wrong that's still close enough to get hurt. That's why I'm asking the question.

Dead right.
Not using push sticks is risky, lazy and pointless. Not to mention stupid!
It becomes second nature quite quickly and you get to be very dexterous with them - they become arm extensions and you can reach further. But you can also do all sorts of things which would be quite impossible otherwise - passing small stuff over a planer or past a saw blade etc.

 

[Zeddedhed]

I have to ask, why couldn't you use push sticks? I'm a machine nubbin and I'm just curious.

Looking at the various videos of people doing silly stuff on youtube, 6" isn't far enough away from a blade to be safe. If it goes wrong that's still close enough to get hurt. That's why I'm asking the question.

Dead right.
Not using push sticks is risky, lazy and pointless. Not to mention stupid!
It becomes second nature quite quickly and you get to be very dexterous with them - they become arm extensions and you can reach further. But you can also do all sorts of things which would be quite impossible otherwise - passing small stuff over a planer or past a saw blade etc.

I don't consider myself to be lazy or stupid, but pushing the end of a rail across a moulding head with push sticks would surely be more dangerous.

Doing it by hand gives far more control and the hands are well away from the action.

How would you use push sticks to do this?

 

[Jacob]

I have to ask, why couldn't you use push sticks? I'm a machine nubbin and I'm just curious.

Looking at the various videos of people doing silly stuff on youtube, 6" isn't far enough away from a blade to be safe. If it goes wrong that's still close enough to get hurt. That's why I'm asking the question.

Dead right.
Not using push sticks is risky, lazy and pointless. Not to mention stupid!
It becomes second nature quite quickly and you get to be very dexterous with them - they become arm extensions and you can reach further. But you can also do all sorts of things which would be quite impossible otherwise - passing small stuff over a planer or past a saw blade etc.

I don't consider myself to be lazy or stupid, but pushing the end of a rail across a moulding head with push sticks would surely be more dangerous.

Doing it by hand gives far more control and the hands are well away from the action.

How would you use push sticks to do this?

Cutting the end of a board freehand in the way you are presumably doing it, is dangerous. You really need some sort of sliding table, but a push stick will save your fingers , if not the workpiece.
Left hand at the far end (assuming the workpiece is longer than say 12" then you don't need a push stick) and push stick at the near end next the cutters. Actually gives you better control as you don't have to worry about your fingers and you can have the push stick right up to the cutters.

PS if you are using a spindle moulder without a power feed you really have to get into the habit of using push sticks all the time - with the odd exception when your hands are (or more likely; one hand is) well out of the way.

PPS When you do the lengthways cut on your 4" board then your left hand is fairly safe without a push stick - but I'd still use one. The bigger risk is your right hand as the board passes the cutters and they are exposed. This is where you definitely should use a push stick on the end of the board.

 

[PAC1]

Here is a link to the Aigner products http://scosarg.com/aigner-contermax-tenoning-clamp.html both the one in the main picture and the associated products at the bottom of the page. not cheap but serve a purpose and offer an alternative to push sticks if you are worried about stability with short pieces.
The false bed is necessary because without it the timber could have vibrated and flapped about it could then catch the blades and be launched with your fingers in quick pursuit. Therefore also always use a Shaw Guard or feather boards as that way your fingers hit the guards and not the blade.
Everyone with a Spindle should have Stephenson's book Spindle Moulder Handbook.

 

[RobinBHM]

The difficulty with machining the end of this component is keeping the rail square to the fence as it is pushed across and avoiding it from juddering or lifting away at some point. Push sticks are not the solution, dangerous in this situation I think. If you want to push the rails across by hand this way, cut a rectangle of ply, screw on a crude handle and push it through with the rail held in front. A small curved lump of timber screwed above the cutter is needed for safety. (Im not saying this is ACOP).

Mdf is not a great material to run against a timber fence as the edges tend to have friction so dont want to run smoothly

There's an easy and safe way to machine end joints in rails and drawer parts when the construction is a sheet material; instead of ripping up the mdf sheet into 100mm rail widths, cut it into pieces say 630mm wide x rail length, then machine end joints, rip to rail width of 100mm then profile. Also this way the power feed can be used. I often make drawers this way.

The other method I use with rails in solid timber is: make a simple sliding table, all it needs is a rectangle of plywood, a fence screwed on at 90 degrees (also acts as chipbreaker), and a toggle clamp. 10mins work to make. This is the easiest way to make cabinet doors with those 1 piece scribe and profile blocks.

 

[Jacob]

..... Push sticks are not the solution, .....

But safer than no push sticks. And I did say a sliding table of some sort is required