Internal ledge and brace ash doors - recommended thickness

[RogerS]

Just wondering if I could get away with 19mm thick wood as that is what British hardwood stock according to their website. Concern is that if I need to clean the timber up then I will lose even more. Never bought from them so don't know quite what to expect cf. flatness etc.

 

[OPJ]

I made internal ledge and brace doors from 1" oak before, finishing both rails and boarding at 19mm thick, without any problems.

If the 19mm quoted is the finished size, you should be okay. If not then, you really need to look at buying 25mm stock.

 

[RogerS]

Thanks for that, Ollie.

Anyone know how much extra prep is needed to ash from British Hardwoods?

 

[JonnyD]

If you are buying PAR you are paying a premium and the boards should be flat and straight. If they are badly warped I would send them back. You can expect a little snipe on the ends if its been through a four sider so I would allow a bit on the length needed.

Jon

 

[MikeG.]

I reckon that would be ge "getting away with it" rather than doing a first rate job. I think the door should ideally finish around 25mm thick (ie ex 32 or 1-1/4").

To make a really classy job, please, please leave off the braces!! Ledged doors are the traditional way for internal doors.........braces are for shed doors, outside toilets etc. Four ledges, no braces, and a bead and butt moulding on broad but random width boards and you have a classy door.

Mike

 

[RogerS]

Have to tend to agree with you Mike. Especially the bits on door aesthetics. In fact, I've already had a custom cutter made up to do this on the spindle moulder. Need to speak to BH re different thicknesses.

Separate question...does anyone know the difference in colour/grain between UK ash and American ash?

 

[JonnyD]

I have used both types of Ash in the past and the colour is quite similar UK Ash tends to be a bit more yellow than the whiter American Ash. Although I have found the colour varies from Batch to Batch and sometimes the 1inch boards are a differnet colour to 2 inch boards. What is quite usual in Ash Boards is a brown patch of heartwood in most boards unless you ask for white both sides.

Jon

 

[RogerS]

Thanks for all the suggestions especially the reference to the heartwood colour as I was then able to pass this little gem past Chief Designer prior to purchase.

Spoke to British Hardwoods and the information that I got from them is as follows.

Ash...only comes in 3m lengths. 3/4" or 1 and 3/4" are the two finished sizes. The 3/4" stock comes out of 1" boards and the 1.75" from 2" board. So if I wanted 1" finish then I'd have to pay for the 2" board. So it's going to be 3/4" for the doors which kind of makes sense as after adding the ledge, the total thickness will be 1.5" which seems about right. I have had some suggestions from elsewhere to make the ledges slightly thicker and maybe, just maybe, I'll prep some from the ash I've had in stick for these.

The ash will come with some heartwood.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Roger
I've never used English Ash for furniture, but I have seen its use (there is a guy this way who specializes in it) and I have to say that the English seems much more gauche in its character. You couldn't call it subtle, exactly, it's very inyerface. That may look good on a door, however.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Benchwayze]

Now here's a point...

I need new interior doors for my drum. So I thought about those white 'panelled' affairs from Wickes or B&Q. But they're cheapie and everybody seems to have them.

I also considered MDF (Dan-style) with a bolection moulding, but they'd be heavy and a bit old fashioned for the type of drum I live in.

So would ledged doors be old fashioned too? I suppose they would, but as some of my furniture is recycled from Noah's Ark, then why not.

I'd have to modify or replace the door-frames maybe.

before I ask SWIMBO, any thoughts on these style doors for modern living? I.e. reasons I could put forward for not buying plastic coated mass produced doors?


:wink:

 

[MikeG.]

John,

ledged boarded doors can look magic in many settings.........I have even used them really successfully in a very modern open-plan minimalist interior.

The only thing I would do is use ash or beech in a modern setting, and I think I might hesitate before using them in an estate-type house.

I even made wooden "Suffolk" latches for mine, and they work really well aesthetically.

Mike

 

[OPJ]

I reckon that would be ge "getting away with it" rather than doing a first rate job. I think the door should ideally finish around 25mm thick (ie ex 32 or 1-1/4").

You do have a good point, Mike (assuming that you're talking about the thickness of the boards, not the overall door including the rails! :winl. Last set I made (about three-years ago to the month!), we were fortunate enough to get 22mm thick boards from 1" (actual size between 27-30mm) oak boards. I also agree with your thoughts on varying the board width; that worked great on the doors we made as well.

English Ash is certainly more 'wild' than the American stuff; there's an awful lot more going on in the heartwood! It would probably make for some very attractive boarding but, at the same time, you need to think of what work you intend to do to the edges... If the grain's running all over the place, it could get ripped to pieces as you pass it through the spindle moulder! :?

 

[JonnyD]

Thanks for all the suggestions especially the reference to the heartwood colour as I was then able to pass this little gem past Chief Designer prior to purchase.

Spoke to British Hardwoods and the information that I got from them is as follows.

Ash...only comes in 3m lengths. 3/4" or 1 and 3/4" are the two finished sizes. The 3/4" stock comes out of 1" boards and the 1.75" from 2" board. So if I wanted 1" finish then I'd have to pay for the 2" board. So it's going to be 3/4" for the doors which kind of makes sense as after adding the ledge, the total thickness will be 1.5" which seems about right. I have had some suggestions from elsewhere to make the ledges slightly thicker and maybe, just maybe, I'll prep some from the ash I've had in stick for these.

The ash will come with some heartwood.

You can get Ash (North American) in 1 1/4 inch and in up to 4.5m lengths. You could get two door lengths out of a 4.2m length so minimising wastage. It might be worth trying some local Joinery shops to see what they would charge to supply and plane it for you.

There is a company near me that also supplies kits to make your own doors. They keep Oak in stock but would probably be able to mill up Ash ones to your specification so it may be worth contacting them.

http://www.billinghaysawmill.co.uk/doors.html

Jon

 

[MikeG.]

I reckon that would be ge "getting away with it" rather than doing a first rate job. I think the door should ideally finish around 25mm thick (ie ex 32 or 1-1/4").

You do have a good point, Mike (assuming that you're talking about the thickness of the boards, not the overall door including the rails

Yep, thats the board thickness Olly......I tend to make my ledges to finish about 35 to 38mm.

You are right about the UK vs than American ash......I have always used American for doors, and been pretty selective about it too.

Mike

 

[RogerS]

John...it's a modern refurbishment that we've done and where the doors are going into. Will try and post some pic's.

 

[Benchwayze]

John,

ledged boarded doors can look magic in many settings.......

I even made wooden "Suffolk" latches for mine, and they work really well aesthetically.

Mike

Having spoken about this with my daughter, she says I should be 'simpatico' with the period of the house (1970's)! I shall have to think on that mind.

I have some drawings somewhere for a wooden latch and in my scrap box I found some nice pieces of teak that will do nicely for the side entrance.
Cheers Mike.

 

[Benchwayze]

John...it's a modern refurbishment that we've done and where the doors are going into. Will try and post some pic's.

Look forward to seeing that Roger. Thanks. I shall probably have to use sapele-veneered mdf and just re-face the doors I have! At least I can get away with oiling them instead of painting, which is a pain in the rear for me.



:lol:

 

[mpooley]

On the subject of ledged doors - I am making some for my kitchen units soon and I was going to do "Brace and ledge" as thats what i,ve seen in kitchen showrooms etc.

If i dont use a brace - what stops the door from drooping?
How do you fix the ledges?
I'm using oak BTW

thanks

Mike

 

[MikeG.]

Mike,

you don't even need ledges to stop the doors "drooping".

Imagine edge joining 3 or 4 boards together as in a normal table-top. If you then hung that vertically you wouldn't see any droop, however long it hung there.....as long as the glue holds.

Glues these days don't give up (indoors)........but if you were nervous you could put a dowel in each joint. This would have to shear to allow any sag.

The ledges give a stiffness to the door, and prevent the outer board from being broken off by clumsy users (and as such, protect the glue-line, and thus help prevent sagging). My homemade 4-ledged no-braces oak doors haven't sagged a millimetre in the 10 years they've been up.

Mike

 

[Steve Maskery]

Mike
I understand what you say about glued joints not being able to sag, but how then do you deal with the cross-grain issue in a solid board 2'6" wide? My understanding of L&B doors is that each board is separate, allowed to move independently (hence the T&G) and therefore the ledges are required to stop the inevitable sag. I don't understand how you've got away with your doors not splitting.

Cheers
Steve