Infill component planes...designed & manufactured by Hol

[Ian Dalziel]

With the demise of Shepherd Tools recently it is felt that there is still a demand for Infill planes in component form.

Having spoken with Karl on this subject I discovered he has been looking at doing this for some considerable time. Before such a project is embarked upon there is a need to do a bit of research and gauge just how popular these will be.

It is proposed that there will be 3 component planes

A…… thumb sized plane.

B…… Smoother Plane. probably an A13

C……Panel Plane….either a 15 ½” or 17 ½”


All 3 planes will be available in kit form or as separate components, leaving adjusters as optional. No timber infill parts will be provided. All customers will receive General arrangement drawings, templates and instructions along with the components.


All components will be made at a high standard of accuracy not yet achieved in this format.

The product is aimed at the competent woodworker and they will be able to build it with minimal equipement. This means sides with holes already drilled, profiled and bevelled; dovetails with no more work other than peining; and the bottoms complete with frog already in situ and machined with mouth. The adjuster, if purchased, will be complete.
The planes will be stamped with Karls initials and the blades will be standard issue with the Holtey logo

The pricing will be slightly above than that set by the defunct Shepherd tools but still be accessible making it a viable project.

It’s still early stages as yet and feedback would be appreciated. It is planned that there will be the smoother plane available for delivery before Christmas. They will only be sold off the shelf, no deposit will be required and customers will only be charged once product is ready for dispatch.

Regards
Ian

 

[Corset]

While i wouldn't call myself competent. I fancied one of the shepards kit as iwould like a project i can do in my cellar so the wife doesn,t complain i am going off the other side of town all the time to use the workshop.
So a yes for me in the next 12 months or so.

 

[Nick W]

Surely the answer has to depend on the price. Any clues? A ballpark figure would do at this stage.

 

[Ian Dalziel]

Hi Nick,
Thanks for the response….its still very early days and we are trying to source materials that will not require the same amount of machining time. We haven’t priced the thumbnail plane yet …this will be our entrance plane but we have done some sums on the A13 ….this will come in the region of £390 - £450 plus the adjuster if required. We are aware that this is above shepherds prices but we are doing far more work to the component parts and too a very high standard which should make life easier for the builder.

Regards

Ian

 

[MikeW]

What's good about y'all entering the market at this time, sad to put it this way, is Shepherd's demise.

It showed a few things. First, kits will sell. Second, they were priced too low, were underfunded, and didn't have a good business plan.

Karl has proved he has staying power, the expertise to avoid certain build issues were it was attributable to manufacturing quality problems and has an established customer base--as well as those of us who have wanted one and couldn't pony up the dollars.

While at first blush the price seems high, it really isn't that high in the scheme of things. While I personally may not be able to afford it, people spend money on the things they really want, even if like me it will take some time to save enough money.

I hope this additional direction works well for y'all. And I hope that one day I can afford a kit. Never have built one--though the Scottish infill I received as a gift will come close by the time I rebuild it :lol:

My best to y'all.

Take care, Mike

 

[houtslager]

hmmmmmmmm ifthe qualiy control is up to Karl's normal standards then ?I believe the two of you will be very busy once you launch these models. I for one have LUSTED after K's 95.
So please tell me you are also thinking of adding this model to the kits please please

from HS in a hot and sweat inducing workshop in Germany :?

 

[Ian Dalziel]

Cheers Mike....

With Shepherds demise this is why we are asking if their is still a market
did they go under because they werent selling or couldnt supply.

still early days

Ian

 

[JesseM]

I had seriously considered one of Sheperd planes a while back but was reluctant because of the bad press they had received. I would be definitely be interested in Holtey kit.

 

[Frank D.]

As I understand it (just my opinion here) Shepherd wasn't selling enough so couldn't supply. They had counted on sales to provide a cash flow which just never came.
I had a high interest in Shepherd kits, indeed they owed me several kits when they went under. While I have no doubt that Holtey et al. would provide only the higfhest quality components, the price is definitely beyond what I find reasonable for a kit. For just a little more money I could get Wayne Anderson to build me a new plane, thus saving me even more time.
FWIW I can get a panel kit from St-James Bay Tool CO. for $215 US, and machined castings for most planes for $125-$150. Of course it might be a lot more work than what Holtey wants to offer, but at that price I'd certainly be willing to put in more time.
Another consideration is that since this is a kit I'm not sure how much difference Holtey quality would show in a plane that has been assembled and finished by someone else. It seems to me there's a lot more to lose if you screw it up, and the final fit and finish still depends on your own skills.
This said, I haven't seen what might be offered. I certainly would look at it with an open mind and wish you all the best if you decide to follow through.

 

[Ian Dalziel]

Thanks Frank,
This is what i'm trying to guage....your opinions and feedback is invaluable

cheers

Ian

 

[Paul Chapman]

Ian,

Being retired and therefore on a limited income I will probably never be able to justify buying one, even though I would like one. So I'm not sure how relevant my comments are, but here goes anyway.

I remember reading a series of articles by David Charlesworth about building one of these kit planes (can't remember what make it was). The one thing I remember about the articles was all the problems he had with it and the lack of precision of the components. At the time I thought I would be really annoyed if I had spent all that money and had to do extensive work to correct poor manufacturing tolerances and techniques.

So I think the main issue will be getting the quality right. If you can do that you may well succeed.

Quality will always sell. How well will depend on the price. Poor quality will only sell until you are found out.

I guess that most people who would buy one of your proposed planes would really like a Holtey - so they will be hoping the finished article will perform like one (within reason).

Hope this is of some help and good luck if you go ahead.

Paul

 

[Frank D.]

Paul,
The Charlesworth article was on a Shepherd kit. Wiley graciously sent me a copy of it, and CHarlesworth was definitely frustrated by the lack of precision of both the metal components and the infills (he had to remill). Having received 3 kits from Shepherd (one for me, two for friends) and looked at them for fit, it does seem that they had solved the problems that Charlesworth complained about. Everything lines up perfectly and no remilling of any parts is necessary.
One option Holtey might want to think about is offering a kit with no infills. It might bring the price down enough to make a kit accessible to more people. The wood necessary to make an infill does not cost that much, and many of us could handle making these parts fairly easily. It seems to me the biggest obstacle for anyone wanting to make an infill is the accurate machining of the metal parts, which would be long and painstaking to do by hand in a small home shop.

 

[Paul Kierstead]

Paul,
One option Holtey might want to think about is offering a kit with no infills.

You must have missed it: "No timber infill parts will be provided."

For a Canadian, in Canadian dollars, it is a shocking amount of money; the kind of money which stops and makes you think: What if I screw it up?

OTOH, I can't see anyway other way I could afford an infill, so perhaps it is a sensible price. I might not mind doing more of the 'machining' work for a lesser price, assuming said work doesn't involve years worth of muscle memory to do it right (i.e. newbie friendly machining work).

I do question having your name on anything other then the blade; I envision poorly made versions coming up on ebay as genuine....

 

[Ian Dalziel]

I do question having your name on anything other then the blade; I envision poorly made versions coming up on ebay as genuine....

Thanks for your input Paul......The initials KH will be on the plane bodies. The blades will have his usual logo.



Ian

 

[Anonymous]

Approximate numbers based on Shepherd's newsletter was about 1000 kits over 5 years. In the early part of their business many kits were sold at a discount on ebay.
Since you are looking at a price point that is more than double the Shepherd kits and not including the wood, I would have to think the market would be much smaller.
The only Shepherd kit I built was a shoulder plane. The parts fit perfectly and the only problem I had was a couple of gaps in my peining that make me ashamed to show it. I'm afraid if I built a Holtey kit, I might still have some poor peining or other finish problems.

 

[David C]

Paul,

Delighted someone read the articles!

They will be coming out in a third book published by GMC, this year.....please don't ask exactly when.....

The infill dimensions did not match the steel plates, and I later discovered through the grapevine that mine might have been from an early batch of kits. The instructions also left a lot to be desired and the photocopied Photos were awful.

I think it is generally accepted here, that throat plates are riveted in before sidewall peining?

However, the process is fascinating, and I was sufficiently pleased with the result to take it to the Axminster show. The result was only possible due to some invaluable telephone support from a famous practitioner!

David Charlesworth

 

[Midnight]

with all due respect to Karl's workmanship (says he being suitably gob smacked), an infill kit sold without the infill is.......what exactly...???

 

[Jake]

Pretty much all the metalwork done?

 

[Midnight]

but only when you've done all the thumb mashing yourself...

still trying to get my head round that kinda price for an empty shell...

 

[mr]

Not trying to be funny but what justifies spending that sort of cash on a tool in any case? I mean that seriously what justifies it? The things may look lovely, Im not referering to Holtey in particular by the way but if something cheaper perfoms at least as well then surely its the better tool, taking the word tool to mean something which performs its task as efficiently as possible. So how are we to measure the value to ourselves against which we can guage what price we might be prepared to pay. I can understand paying these levels of cash for works of art and theres no denying the level of production value for want of a better word that goes into these tools, but partially the value here is derived from the provenance. I cant help feeling that for £4K for a plane the thing better whisper sweet nothings to me while it works not just perform as well as another possibly mass produced cheaper brand. The only other option is that they are destined to sit in collectors cabinets and there's nothing wrong with that per se. The problem with kits for me is that while they appear to be an affordable route to ownership theyre really not the same thing at all. You cant make a work of art from a kit and as a tool in kit form there's no guarantee of superior performance.