In The Mind

[Gill]

I'm reading a book about art right now which is making me reconsider my whole approach to woodwork. The basic premise is that artists operate in a realm of space and concept whereas most of us use logical, sequential approaches for most of our daily tasks. Artists often cannot explain the steps they are taking to produce their work because their thought processes cannot be articulated.

So I'm curious to understand more about the attitude of woodworkers as they go about what is after all a very creative task. My type of woodworking revolves around the scrollsaw and is inherently more freeform than most other types of woodwork. As a result, I tend to just cut and shape the wood (or MDF :roll: ) in ways that I encompass mentally, not ways that I can describe. I suspect that many other woodworkers adopt similar mindsets, especially those who work with hand tools. Perhaps cutting dovetail joints by hand requires a woodworker to relax into the task and appreciate the cuts that must be made as part of the creative process rather than a sequential process which must be followed. Yet there will also be woodworkers who enjoy creating woodwork by following sequential instructions (so-called Normites, perhaps?) which lead to them finally creating something which they can admire once the individual components are assembled.

I'm not knocking any particular approach to woodwork here; why criticise an approach which delivers the goods ? I'm just wondering how varied our thought processes are when it comes to woodwork and how that variation affects the end product. We've all got the same arms, legs, hands etc yet some woodworkers can handsaw by eye much more effectively than others who have received the same instruction. If the explanation isn't physical, then surely it must lie somewhere in the mind? And if we can identify a solution, our woodworking skills might be enhanced, opening new techniques which we've never been able to master before.

Gill

 

[Losos]

Hi Gill,
Wow, getting into the realms of art & conscious whew

You didn't mention the title & author of that book, is it something you would recommend as reading material for us woodies :?:

Personally, I tend to follow the "If that's what the drawing says, that's what i must do" approach. I have been known to deviate when I've cut something too short, I then adopt the "That'll look better if i cut the other one short as well" approach :wink:

I would like to be more artistic but whenever I set out deliberately so to do the result is an unmitigated disaster, I'm not happy with it, & I can't bring myself to show it to anyone for fear of ridicule

I guess scrollsaw work lends itself more to "Freedom of expression" and as I think I mentioned on another thread, next year sometime I may venture into this area.

 

[George_N]

I'm the analytical type by nature, which probably explains the day job in science. I like sequential steps where I can visualise individual components and see where they fit into the whole. I make mostly functional things (they are all supposed to be functional, some are just more successful than others) and to a large extent function dictates form. I've never been very good at letting my imagination lead me in woodwork projects but I have great respect and admiration for the more artistic projects that get posted on this site. I do often feel inspired to try something more adventurous but more mundane things, like kitchen cabinets and doors, keep getting in the way.

 

[Gill]

Hi Losos

The book I'm refering to is Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain by Betty Edwards. It's primarily about sketching but has implications for other creative activities as well. I picked it up because I was terrible at drawing; I still am, but I'm only on page 54 ! Hopefully I'll be able to draw well enough by the end of the book to be able to produce my own scrollsaw patterns.

The book considers how dependent we are on the dominant logical left-hand hemisphere of the brain which governs logical, sequential actions. The more passive right-hand side of the brain governs our artistic actions. The author suggests that the reason many of us 'can't draw' is that we've been conditioned to depend on the logical left side of the brain which relies on symbols learned in childhood rather than the right side which governs our appreciation of form.

It's a concept I find very enlightening. I'm sure many of us have experienced the sensation of doing something almost automatically and finding that we're doing it to a very high quality. I've heard this sensation described before as being 'in the zone'. I can certainly relate to this in terms of dancing. The other night I was learning some new steps but it was only when I stopped concentrating on the sequence and immersed myself into the music that I really began to enjoy success.

Gill

 

[Scrit]

Hi Gill

Interesting subject! From a purely constructional point of view items such as furniture and joinery pieces generally need to start from a structure which derives it's strength from a combination of materials choice, making/joining techniques and hand/eye coordination. In making the piece I feel that a semi-rigid approach is needed in order that the completed piece will work as a functioning piece of "household equipment". In producing the overall design, however, I feel there is an overlap between form (style) and function in much the same way as there is in the design of a car. But the "style" element does need to be introduced at the concept stage rather than at the making stage because of the functional constraints placed upon us by the materials we use.

Sometimes this form/function balance swings the other way and a piece of furniture ceases to be functional and becomes more or vehicle of artistic expression - to my mind the most noticeable examples are objects like the Rennie Mackintosh high-backed chairs. But equally I can think of pieces such as some of the Bauhaus pieces (*for example the Wassily chair) which are attractive pieces whilst being functional. They are probably closer to the engineering precept of "form follows function"

If you design furniture you must be capable of both, which might explain why larger makers tend to employ designers and technical designers.

Scrit

 

[CHJ]

Hi Gill,

I think it is precisely why I am so engrossed and enjoy my basic turning.

I have spent all my working life concentrating on precision engineering in one form or another were errors equated to lives at risk.
I lost interest in 'Cabinet Making' for want of a better description, I think, because it to required a measure of concentrated control.

Simple turning gives me total freedom of expression and if it changes form during the shaping process so be it, and no one is any the wiser.

It is for this reason I think that every time I look at the more elaborate pieces done by more accomplished turners I mentally reject the concept, not because it is not attainable with care and attention but that it implies drifting back to controlled parameters.

Mind you it could just be that I am to lazy to apply myself to the work involved. :lol:

 

[Adam]

Certainly in general, I hate to work to plans, or measurements. I like to be in the workshop and just see how things come together. I spend the whole day being aware that mistakes means items don't fit together and the consequence, so have to keep an eye on all dimensions etc. So i prefer to do the opposite in the workshop once I get home. Releasing yourself from such constraints may only be possible to those doing one-offs / hobbiests, as for some poeple to make a practical living wage from woodwork means you have to manufacture things in batches, with sequential manufacture. Its an interesting area for discussion.

Adam

 

[Taffy Turner]

I'm with Chas here.

Actually, my views are almost identical to his. Hardly surprising that we are both Engineers and both turners!

My artistic side is very underdeveloped - hardly surprising as my entire education and work experience to date has been developing my analytical skills.

I first started turning as I saw some turned work produced by others, and experience what can only be described as a very strong yearning (almost a compulsion) to be able to produce similar items myself.

The actual turning was a means to an end.

Interestingly, I now find myself drawn to scroll work and intarsia for much the same reason - not because I find the process particularly interesting, but because I want to be able to produce the end result for myself.

I read somewhere that all adults have a subconscious urge to create "things" - it is when this urge moves from the subconscious to the conscious that we act on it. The exact point that this happens depends on other social needs which take precedence, such as shelter, warmth, food, affection etc. Once these needs are met, they become less of a priority, and the need to create comes to the fore.

Of course, not everyone is the same - so called "artistic types" presumably have a much higher need to be creative, and so this asserts itself much earlier.

An interesting subject though.

Regards

Gary

 

[Johnboy]

Interesting stuff. I am an engineer too and find for tables, cabinets etc that I design on paper/CAD and then make exactly to plan in the workshop. Turning is completely different for me. I just mount a blank on the lathe and see what turns (pun intended) out. Sometimes it's horrible and sometimes very pleasing.

John

 

[dedee]

Chas/Gary,
Have you ever considered woodcarving. You can really let yourself go with freeform interpretations of animate orinaminate objects.

I am one of those that cannot visualise in 3D without the add of drawings and even then I can struggle.

I find that projects I have"designed" myself appear some what chunky and unrefined - over engineered perhaps?.

I have tried to "freeform" jigsaw puzzles and everyone has been a disaster.

Andy

 

[Gill]

Some interesting replies .

The comments from those of you who have described what is in your mind at the time you're using tools are particularly intriguing. I wonder how many woodworkers have ever taken note of their thoughts at the time they're actually 'hands on'. I've no doubt some will think in a linear fashion, "Set the saw blade, feed the wood in along the fence, use the push sticks, make sure the workpiece is supported as it's fed out, switch the saw off, go feed the cat..." . Others (such as the turners, judging from the posts so far), will simply cut and not be able to describe what they're thinking except for perhaps being aware of a reference point they're aiming at.

Andy - when you cut your jigsaws, what goes through your mind? When I'm scrolling, I'm very much aware of the shape I'm cutting but I'd find it hard to describe the process in detail. Although I follow individual lines on a pattern, I'm rarely conscious of doing so at the time that I'm actually cutting.

Gill

 

[Matt_S]

All very interesting

I'm not long out of uni having done a product design course and now work within the graphic/corporate identity industry but still creative. I would describe myself as a creative person and think design and art are very closely linked especially the more craft based design. (anyone see home and discussing design as art people such as Ron Arad Ross Lovegrove?)

Its very intersting looking at the actual process of woodworking as the creative stage. For me the creativity is in the design, concept generation and then the realisation into something you can produce. After this you have to have some degree of plans to work too otherwise its not going to look like it should!

I can see with turning etc that you can go at it freehand but for me the fact that all the top designers grab a pencil first proves that to create great products you can't jump straight in. IMHO anyway

 

[DomValente]

When I first decided to make a living from our chosen pastime I swore that man made boards would not come near my workshop, fat chance.
I truly believe that using these devils option reduce ones artistic nature .
Today when I finish, say a shop fit or an aquarium, most of which are veneered panels I need a couple of days of tidying the workshop or "caressing" real timber to get back in the mood.
I can neither draw or use a CAD package my brain just doesn't work that way,when visiting clients I take sketches produced by my wife(an art teacher) or tell them that if they can sketch something I can get a better insight to what they want. What I'm trying to say is, can't draw or sketch or CAD so where does this creativity come from?
Speaking of left and right sides of the brain, is it not true that if speaking with someone on the telephone you should not use your left ear if you are angry as this side of your brain controls emotions..

DOm

 

[CHJ]

...snip...
I can see with turning etc that you can go at it freehand but for me the fact that all the top designers grab a pencil first proves that to create great products you can't jump straight in. IMHO anyway

Matt, I am not averse to picking up a pencil to clear my thoughts about differing concepts, in fact most of my family have or had leanings toward design and subsequent production.

We have all been/are people though who in the main work outside the box so to speak, devising alternate methods/work-arounds to any given problem.

Designing for turning as I see it, in the main, immediately applies constraints as to material type, shape and form. Maybe essential if you are to make a living selling bulk production, or meeting a specific high end collectors market.

However the ability to envisage and execute a form in a one off (sometimes recalcitrant) piece of wood is something totally different and extremely satisfying and I am sure that many of the award wining artists pieces never had more than a mental picture as inspiration.

 

[Alf]

Could it be another case where the reason no-one can say "do this, do that and you will be making well-made, artistic, functional work" beacuse, yet again, there is no definitive answer? Everyone's different, damn them. :evil: :lol:

For myself, I'm still burdened with having to think too much about my technical limitations to let my creative side have free reign in woodworking. It's come close sometimes recently, the point where I can stop thinking about the nuts and bolts and see the whole bridge, but still not quite there yet. Turning, f'rinstance, in no way can I let artistic thoughts have free reign or it's chaos. I need my calipers and so forth to give me any hope at all of creating what I want.

On the other hand with writing, my other creative outlet, I'm pretty much familiar with the tool kit of sentences, punctuation and structure to such a point that they don't interupt the creative flow at all. In fact they help it (most days...) so I can get across my "vision". Often by disregarding them or manipulating them to my own ends. One of the reasons I can keep plodding away at the woodworking is the hope that one day I'll reach that same point, where the "how" is a mere detail to the "why".

Hey, a person can hope... :lol:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Paul Chapman]

In my experience, most of the best artists (in whatever medium) are also masters of technique. However, once they have learnt the technique they are able to put it at the back of their minds so that it doesn't interfere with their creative skills :wink:

Paul

 

[engineer one]

i guess that what we are trying to achieve is the view of krenov, in that
whether or not you like what he does you are jealous of the fact that
he can look at a plank and think of something to make out of it whilst
most of us want an article and then chose wood to go with it.

i think the main reason there is so little artistic content is the way that people learn woodworking, very formally, you know planing square
etc, and also marking out carefully, sawing to lines etc, and initially
anyway not worrying about the colour or pattern of the wood, rather the
function of the piece.

later when one is more confident, one tends to think more about
the artistic process of matching woods, enhancing patterns and the
natural flow, and also the type of joints which show.

i am constantly amazed at the japanese and chinese joints we see
on quite cheap imported furniture, wish i had the courage to try
some of them, but first i must be happy with dovertails and half laps
i guess.

i also think that there is a dearth of good books that show you the
basics of chosing wood in widths, depths and strengths for various
jobs. where do you find the guide for the sizes of thinner pieces
on for instance, pigeon holes etc.? and i have both joyce, and
garth graves. great for ergonomics, but not so good on thicknesses.

i think artistic licence is dependent upon ones increase in knowledge
and skills. once you understand how wood works (sorry )
it is easier to see what else you can do to improve the function
whilst making the form also more attractive.

interesting thought process though.

paul :wink:

 

[Gill]

I'm really enjoying this conversation .

It's amazing how many of us focus on what we're doing and are able to articulate it later. Yet the work that so many of us find most impressive has a creation process which is often most difficult to articulate. Paul's point about having to master basic techniques is perfectly valid, of course. But it's the fact that some of us can apply those techniques successfully and others can't that intrigues me.

When you learn to ride a bicycle, you have to remember to keep pedalling, steer the handlebars, look out for obstacles, make sure you're heading the right way, keep your balance, and probably a whole host of other tasks that I haven't identified. It's not surprising that most people keep falling off when they first try! Yet they've usually been told exactly how to ride a bike by other people. Riding a bicycle takes more than just the correct operation of a multitude of tasks - it's about bringing all these actions together as a whole.

Turning wood is about more than just cutting wood. It's about presenting the chisel, shaping, and probably loads of other aspects (which I can't describe because I'm not a turner ) . So when turners are working, I should imagine they switch off the logical side of the brain and immerse themselves into how the turning feels.

Perhaps when we're trying to make something out of wood and we can't get it quite right despite knowing all the techniques, it might be that we're trying too hard with mental faculties that simply can't cope with what we're asking them to do.

Gill

 

[engineer one]

interesting thought again gill, i think one of the reasons that people
can't apply the techniques properly is that they can't always visualise
the end product.

i know that sounds strange, but just because you know you are going
to make a shelf, a coffee table, or a tall boy, doesn't mean you can
actually visualise the whole thing as anything other than a collection
of parts.

i think it is often easy to think to hard about the joints etc and not
about the aesthetics which the whole will have.

it's actually amazing what straight wood conjoined in simple ways
can do, maybe we should use it more often :lol: :lol:

paul :wink:

 

[tim]

Interesting topic Gill.

I think so much depends on the type of item being made. When I make furniture, for example, 99% of the creative work is done before any tools go near any wood. The construction of the furniture is then a technical execution of that creative process. That doesn't mean that I only use one side of my brain but it does mean that I tend to be much more left brain in the workshop since I want it to look exactly as I have conceived it. Which is pretty similar to Matt_S's point.

I don't think that is very different from the construction of large sculptures eg the Angel of the North. I imagine that that was planned down to the last detail before construction but teh original designs were most likely borne of right brain activity

If I was involved in a more freeform project eg scrollwork or turning then the conception process can occur more or less at the same time as execution unless you have specific outcomes in mind.

One other thing that comes to mind is that in making furniture, it is generally a construction process ie bits being joined together which require precise fitting to a varying degree. Turning and scrolling tend to start with a single piece which is then essentially deconstructed by removing material. This I imagine makes it much more natural for right brain 'lets see where this leads to' functions to be used.

Cheers

Tim