Impression on Iyoroi chisels

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Why bob,
It really depends on what type of work you are doing and what kind of woods you are working.........for general work i use a mix of stanley 750's and LN's, i hardly ever use my japanese chisels. Not sure why cause they are all sharp.... i think i just like the feel and balance of the 750's.

Kinda suppose whatever you are comfy with.

I copied the first reply below from the Japanes forums....

the guy has a good answer and worth reading. Although the question asked was slightly different to yours it still has some relevance



asking the question about why a certain number of chisels is needed is like asking an auto mechanic why they need more than one socket set.

Depending upon what you do, fewer or greater number of tools can be the ideal. Some carvers use one tool pretty much exclusively, others have dozens of carving tools. Some chisels get used only occasionally, but like that odd size Torx driver you need to remove the headlight assembly on your Saab, when you need a certain specific tool and nothing else will do the job, it's jolly nice to have it. Some mechanics approach everything with a sledgehammer and a pair of rusty vice-grips, others have $25,000 Snap-on extravaganzas.

I have some 40-50 chisels - I've lost count. Probably about 25% of them I use constantly, 50% of them I use frequently, and some I use occasionally. Some chisels I bought thinking I'd use them, like a corner chisel, or a swan-necked chisel, and then determined that i either didn't like them or didn't really have much used for them - so I sold 'em.

What chisels to get depends upon what you do obviously. In my case, I do both timber framing and furniture making, so I have a set of heavy striking chisels, a regular set of bench chisels, and a set of paring chisels, along with some timber slicks. Added to that I have a small collection of assorted gouges, some specialized shoji chisels, and a small assortment of crank neck chisels. That does the job for me, but I could probably do 75% of the work with a 7 set of bench chisels. If one were making violins, or carving a certain type of duck and nothing else, then I'm sure the set of chisels would have some significant differences in make-up to what I have.

You can make one tool work for a lot of things, or have specialized tools for a variety of applications. I tend to prefer the latter. I also prefer going to the car mechanic with lots of tools than to Bert down the road with the rusty vice grips approach.

I know if I'm slugging out mortises in large timbers all day, my bench chisels are going to take rather more abuse than is wise. And taking a 48 mm heavy chisel to trim a tenon on a kumiko seems a bit absurd too.

A similar question to this could be asked about how many sharpening stones to get, or how many planes. There is no one answer to that.

I
 
Iyoroi chisels come in a vast range of quality and cost.
His expensive ones were fantastic, Kingshott had a set, and two of my favorites are his.

I believe he was one of the first blacksmiths to mechanize some processes on his lower ranges to achieve higher production rates and reasonable cost.

I wonder if anyone else can comment on a problem that we encountered in the late 1980's / early 90's? With paring chisels in the £30 -40 range.

Some of the new long paring chisels (bought for students) which we had liked and used for some years started to misbehave as we flattened the backs. If a belly was present, as metal was removed on a coarse 800g waterstone, the back continued to curl away from flat, resulting in the complete disapearance of the hollow before we could get the backs flat. The bend was getting worse as we worked and removed metal!

It was sugested that he was rolling the two steel layers together instead of hammer forge welding, and that stored stresses in the composite were being released as we worked on the backs.

I am very keen to hear if anyone has experienced this problem with the current APTC long paring chisels?
 
Thanks a lot for the replay! :D

The chisels I like are the Yioroi Chu-Gata Oire Nomi, withe paper steel, (blade length 60 mm, overall length 225 mm, blade thickness 5 - 7.5 mm). You can see them in the Dick-GmbH web site (cat#710230)

The main use of these chisel will be for cutting dovetail.

I like also the LN chisels, which are in a similar range price.
The characteristics of a chisel I'm looking for are: balance, control, and keep a good sharpe edge.

The woods I use are usually hard maple, mogany, beech, cherry, walnut. I don't (usually) use exotic wood.
 
David C":3jkoko76 said:
Some of the new long paring chisels (bought for students) which we had liked and used for some years started to misbehave as we flattened the backs. If a belly was present, as metal was removed on a coarse 800g waterstone, the back continued to curl away from flat, resulting in the complete disapearance of the hollow before we could get the backs flat. The bend was getting worse as we worked and removed metal!

It was sugested that he was rolling the two steel layers together instead of hammer forge welding, and that stored stresses in the composite were being released as we worked on the backs.

I am very keen to hear if anyone has experienced this problem with the current APTC long paring chisels?

Bingo! :roll:

Thanks David! I now have an explanation as to what the heck was happening with the things! I have experienced exactly this with Iyoroi long paring chisels from APTC (bought last year). I have a 12, 18 and 24 mm and all have the hollows lapped out over some (or most) of the back.

I haven't used them since the start of this year so I've just rubbed them on a flat stone to check and, although they were flat when put away, they are not flat now :? There's not too much in it on the 12 & 18 but the 24 seems to be like a ploughed field after about 10 strokes on a red DMT. Generally though, they all look to be curling up at the edges.

Scott (who's now paranoid and will have to check every other chisel he owns!)
 
Hi,

Oh boys, this looks scary (at least for the beginner like me who's also searching to buy a few good chisels to start with -see my other post-). Should I stay away from Iyoroi altogether (and jump for LN) or what ?
Confused, confused... :?
 
OK, I gave the 12 and the 18mm a quick rub on each of the various grits and they're fine now so no big deal there. The 25 mm seems to need more work though. It's definitely around the edges. Will post a pic when I get minute.
 
Scott,

Delighted to hear we were not the only ones to experience this problem.

David

PS My current recommendation to students (who are prepared to spend that much money) is for L-N chisels.

However I have no intention of stopping using or selling my Japanes collection, I use both now.

The point is that for a relative beginner, the L-Ns require much less work, are virtually perfectly ground with symmetrical crossection and nice delicate edges, are less brittle, can be changed in moments to long handle option (which I dreamed up ;-) ) and are perfect for those who can sharpen A2 steel, i.e. those who use waterstones.......

If I hear a word about SAUCE I will have a serious sense of humour failure.....and take my bat home.....
 
Hi David,

Thanks for the clear recommendation. I probably don't know enough of english or forum's history to know about SAUCE so won't comment on that ;-)
BTW, for students not ready to spend that much, what would be your recommendation then ? (just out of curiousity, as I'm ready to let someone pay that much to offer them to me for Chrismas ;-) )

Regards,
 
Oh, and another point (and sorry for hijacking this thread) : while LN chisels are probably just fine for me, what about big size chisels (like e.g 30mm) ?
 
Less expensive UK or European chisels, very difficult choice, not sure I have a meaningful opinion here.

Ashley Iles have nice delicate edges.

The euro chisels, do not have delicate edges but some have very good steel, if you are able to source unpolished variety but I hate the handles.

Large sizes of L-N chisels are planned, ask Tom when! Meanwhile I am very happy with Classic Hand tools Japanese set made by a Co op. They are round the £30-40 mark, you can buy individually.

David Charlesworth
 
Here you go...

68718759.jpg


This is my Iyoroi 25mm long paring chisel.

You can see where the hollows were worn away getting the back flat when I first got it and on the left edge and tip is the shiny remains of the initial back preparation as against the dull, scratch-marked bit where I rubbed it over the diamond stone last night.

For some reason the 25mm chisel never ever felt right on the stone. I assumed it was just me but it had never occured to me that the lamination might be causing a problem.
 
Scott,

That's a brilliant example.

I would send it back, if you can bear to after all that work.

Alternatively grind back about 5 to 10 ? mm

This is why I do not buy those particular paring chisels any more. I do not know what percentage exhibit this problem?

David
 
Scott that looks awful. I would send them back and ask for money, not replacement
 
Tony":1023t4uh said:
Scott that looks awful

mmm! Not great is it! :evil:

I'm still deciding whether or not to persevere with it. I probably won't because if it was flat before and curled up then it could happen again. Life's too short and I hate flattening backs anyway!

Interesting phenomenon though! The 12 and 18mm lost some of the hollows in the initial flattening and after the small amount of re-flattening they've had this time I hope they'll be OK because I do like the chisels. I reckon they probably will be because I'm guessing the stresses are out of them now.

I have a 6mm one that is fine and a couple of cranked ones that also seem fine.

It would be interesting to know if it's just the paring chisels too or if it applies to oire nomi as well? I don't have any of those but my curiosity is
aroused now.
 
Hi Scott,

Almost three years back now I bought a set of Iyoroi bench chisels with boxwood handles. The description tells this in english:

Excellent chisels forged by the most experienced blacksmiths in Master Kohzo Iyoroi’s workshop. The blades are meticulously shaped by hand in a series of small steps. To guarantee superior edge life, the blades are laminated with “White Paper Steel”, a type of steel made from pure iron ore sand and similar to sword steel. Multiple hollows are ground in the blade’s back to provide more support and control for edge work. Waxed boxwood handles.

The german text says that after lamination the chisels are forged by hand. For me this has to say, that lamination is machine-made. Hm, I never had any problems with them and I am highly satisfied. I thank you for the information on the paring chisels.

Regards, Marc

PS: I can feel a little about your hesitation to not send them back. I posted a thread on a japanese mortice chisel some days ago. By work it revealed to be difficult to use correctly. My mortises tended to be off square a little bit always to the same side. Preparation of the chisel took an hour and I don't want to spend precious shoptime for not being sure to have a good replacement one. :-k The seller told me, it wouldn't be sure I'd get a better one.

japbenchchisels.jpg
 
Marc & Scott,

The multi fluted backs are normally slightly higher cost and quality.

I have had much less trouble with the bench striking chisels which are much shorter.

We had numerous problems with long paring chisels, which we had not had in previous years.

Is the crossection of the mortice chisel symmetrical or crooked? relative to the flat back.

David
 
David C":276gd1cp said:
...
Is the crossection of the mortice chisel symmetrical or crooked? relative to the flat back.

David

David,

The centre of the shaft doesn't match the center of the handle. That's why I thought I would hold it not correctly and so chop in the wrong position.

In your first book you describe a japanese mortice chisel having parallel hollow sides. This doesn't apply to mine. The sides are parallel, but off square, in profile tapered from the back to the upper side. The taper is more important on one side than on the other (1mm off square versus 0.5mm the other side). Is that what you call crooked?

japmortch_8.jpg


Then a photo of the profile in comparison to a bench chisel. The whole chisel isn't sound. I feel something wrong looking at it and working with it. I think it has more than one problem.

Friendly regards and thank you for your help,

Marc

japmortch_9.jpg
 
Very difficult to diagnose problems by e mail.

The chisel looks no worse than many.

Perhaps with some practice you can learn to compensate for the present out of squareness.

L-N mortice chisels are very accurately machined!

Sorry not to be of more help,
David
 

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