Importance of record keeping

[clogs]

when I lived in France I used to dig swimming pools etc.....
client wanted a 15m x 6m pool with large 1/2 moon steps.....
I went over at his request to mark the thing out together......
which we did after double checking......and keeping his drawing....
he watched me hammer the pins in and spray the lining paint......
apart from the rocks the size of a Mini..and landscaping....all went well...
get a phone call to say I'd dug it to small and that I needed to bring the machine back and resize the pool.....
(it cost €500 euros to move my JCB).....
returned straight away and of course during digging the pins and paint had dissapeared......
so the smirking client had me....well he thought so.....
what he didn't know was before I left on the first visit I put another set of pins in with paint at least 5m futher out on all sides n corners....
"got ya"......hahaha
I did take photo's as well before the dig......
so now he's not so happy, and I told him as he'd been so horrible about the whole thing to get somebody else in to finish.....
I was working for just over 1/2 the French rate.....

 

[TheTiddles]

It wouldn't be so lonely if more people stood up for what is right and legal in this case.

Yes, sounds easy doesn’t it?

Reality has a way of spoiling that and there’s a need to see the bigger picture, sometimes rolling over on one thing to enable a larger win is the right thing to do for the company which overrides the moral arguments that individuals might want to take precedence.

Most companies keep a “goodwill register” where you log what you gave away for the next time you’re in a negotiation and you need ammunition, it’s a very powerful argument when you cost the hours in and sometimes when a project lead hears what their commercial department did and how much you gave them it can cause great embarrassment to them.

Aidan

 

[Rorschach]

I know the reality of things, but the reality is only that way because we assume that is the way things have to be. If everyone held everyone else to their contracts and acted in a gentlemanly manner then the "goodwill register" and rolling over in the face of lawyers wouldn't need to happen. Wishful thinking I know but it makes me less depressed to live in the hope it could happen.

 

[MusicMan]

Rorschach, your new title does suit you.

When you run a company you have to realise that you literally bet the company on every major decision. I could have been righteous and indignant and thereby led the company straight into bankruptcy, which is what happens when a £2M company tries to face off with a £100B company. Then about 75 people in the US and UK would have lost their jobs and the investors, all their investment. That was not a path I wanted to take.

And they did pay in the end.

 

[Lonsdale73]

Many years ago, I worked as a account manager in the print industry. We were one of a limited number of sites chosen to print the first of the then controversial Key Stage SATS exam papers on behalf of The Staionery Office and they were one of my accounts. Usually we went to press with plates made from customer supplied film but in this instance we received oard artwork that we had to outsource to someone capable of reproducing them as film. There'd be two variants: a) question paper that pupils filled in and b) answer paper for teachers/invigilators to grade the answer papers from. One of the pieces of artwork intended for a question paper appeared to show the answer so I queried that with my contact at the TSO. I was told it was fine. We still used fax then and a copy was sent over for him to sign off as correct before we would agree to go to print. They signed it, faxed it back and we printed. Few days later we receive a call saying there was an error and several hundred thousands of papers were going to have to be reprinted - at our cost! My boss - barely 40, babyfaced but with a head of prematurely grey hair courtesy of a lifetime in print! - was ashen-faced at the prospect of such a sizeable loss in what was a tough time for the business as it looked for new investors to avoid going under. I like to think that concern extended also to the potential need to discipline and possibly sack the AM handling the account. His business partner - of similar but already bald and a miserable sod at the best of times - was actually smiling for once, few things he liked more than a good rollicking or - better still - a sacking. When I was summonsed and the nature of the problem explained I knew immediately I was safe and I fetched the signed off proof that ensured our backsides were well and truly covered. For a moment, I thought my boss was going to kiss me; conversely, his partner looked simultaneosly gutted, thwarted and murderous. TSO still tried to wriggle out of paying for the reprint.

 

[Rorschach]

Rorschach, your new title does suit you.

When you run a company you have to realise that you literally bet the company on every major decision. I could have been righteous and indignant and thereby led the company straight into bankruptcy, which is what happens when a £2M company tries to face off with a £100B company. Then about 75 people in the US and UK would have lost their jobs and the investors, all their investment. That was not a path I wanted to take.

And they did pay in the end.

My previous reply was deleted.

I totally understand your decision and in your shoes I might well have done the same thing. I still think that decision to be wrong though. You showed the bigger company that they could be bullies and get away with it when it was not just morally but legally wrong.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

An old friend, a printer by trade, learned his lesson the hard way when he printed a load of posters for a Guy Fox night bash.
He corrected it to Guy Fawkes and the customer, who wouldn't admit his ignorance, refused to pay. From then on he insisted on everything he printed being proofread and signed off by the customer before printing.

 

[MusicMan]

My previous reply was deleted.

I totally understand your decision and in your shoes I might well have done the same thing. I still think that decision to be wrong though. You showed the bigger company that they could be bullies and get away with it when it was not just morally but legally wrong.

No, they knew that already. They are part of a particular US management school, of management by bullying and shouting. In the US business environment, that can indeed work.

 

[AES]

I know the reality of things, but the reality is only that way because we assume that is the way things have to be. If everyone held everyone else to their contracts and acted in a gentlemanly manner then the "goodwill register" and rolling over in the face of lawyers wouldn't need to happen. Wishful thinking I know but it makes me less depressed to live in the hope it could happen.

IN PRINCIPLE (please note the caps) you're quite right Rorschach.

BUT the reality is that it will NEVER happen, certainly not in my lifetime, and having spent a huge amount of it chasing all over the world sorting contracts that involve both millions of dollars AND, at the end of the day, possibly even people's lives I KNOW it won't happen.

I know I'm a lot older than you but I strongly suspect that your - wishful thinking indeed - ain't ever going to happen in your lifetime either. Sorry.

Or are you REALLY just deliberately living up to your new Forum handle? I really just cannot believe that you're SO naive.

 

[Rorschach]

IN PRINCIPLE (please note the caps) you're quite right Rorschach.

BUT the reality is that it will NEVER happen, certainly not in my lifetime, and having spent a huge amount of it chasing all over the world sorting contracts that involve both millions of dollars AND, at the end of the day, possibly even people's lives.

I know I'm a lot older than you but I strongly suspect that your - wishful thinking indeed - ain't ever going to happen in your lifetime either. Sorry.

Or are you REALLY just deliberately living up to your new Forum handle? I really just cannot believe that you're SO naive.

As I said, I know the reality of the situation, but I can live in hope of a better world and will always push for people to act in a manner that we might achieve it one day. Excusing a situation never helps even if changing it is hard.

 

[AES]

OK Rorschach, we all want a better world. But you writing "I know the reality of the situation, but I can live in hope of a better world ......".

Sorry you've got that plain wrong. From what I saw in all the above posts - particularly by Music Man, sounds a LOT like situations I've been in - nobody was trying to excuse a situation above, simply trying to EXPLAIN the background to the decision making.

AND, in many situations, when writing "even if changing it is hard"; again you're quite wrong, sorry - it's NOT hard, in reality it's bl--dy impossible mate. Sad though it may be, there are times when although it's important - vital even - to maintain a principle, it's simply impossible in the reality of some particular situations.

 

[Rorschach]

Being optimistic about things helps me get out of bed in the morning so I will have to continue along that path.

 

[AES]

As I said, I know the reality of the situation, but I can live in hope of a better world and will always push for people to act in a manner that we might achieve it one day. Excusing a situation never helps even if changing it is hard.

Sorry Rorscach, I thought I'd replied to your post (above) but it seems to have disappeared. Try again.

"Pushing for people to act in a manner ....... " is, with respect, beyond your "competence" except in the most general way. ONLY the people conducting the negotiations on the spot can decide in the end (been there, done, that, got the T shirt")!

And by writing "Excusing a situation never ....... " ; you are, sorry, once again, quite wrong. In the above posts I have seen NO excuses offered, simply explanations of the reasoning behind some very unpalatable decisions to be made (again, been there ....... etc, ).

 

[AES]

OHHHH, VERY sorry Rorscach! I REALLY don't know what's going on with the software (or more likely, my usage of it)!

First I thought my 1st replay to you had disappeared (I couldn't find it anyway!) then it's suddenly reappeared - AFTER my 2nd post (immediately above).

So from my above 2 posts it looks like I'm "hounding" you and that is definitely NOT my intention. I'm simply disagreeing - very strongly - with what I discern as your entirely praiseworthy but total unrealistic take on the real world.

But let's stop here please. You've made your point quite clear and I think I have made mine too. Really NOT intending to "batter at" you. My sincere apologies if that's how it appears. End of thread as fair as I'm concerned.

 

[MikeJhn]

I had a client who worked as the maintenance company for a large Blue Chip US conglomerate in the UK, they where having problems with one of the internal maintenance personnel wanting to sign off any scaffolding on site before it was used, this scaffolding was erected by one of the big access companies in the UK, I was asked by my client to attend a meeting with the US management to try and sort out the differences, during the meeting it became obvious to me that the difficult manager was not qualified to inspect or sign off the scaffolding, I politely said that we where more than happy to continue letting them take on the Health and Safety responsibility for the scaffolding as they where signing it off as usable, suddenly the senior manger took the difficult manager outside and on their return, said, they would in future accept the access companies completion certificate.

It's all a question of knowing your ground, and the contract, and sticking to it, my adage always was "If its not in writing it was not said) all of my Forman had a duplicate book that they would write down any instruction given to them by the Architect, Engineer or Client and get them to counter sign.

At the end of the contract any claim we had for extra's was based on facts and documented evidence, in fact one Rail Company paid us a few Mil not to put the claim in.

So as the heading it can not be overstressed the importance of keeping documented evidence.

 

[clogs]

I was a trouble shooter for a Danish engineering company......
After checking over their new machine, v/high pressure Hydraulics, 650 volts and very complicated......
I found a design fault that would end in complete machine failure...(A total Loss)..
the machine was valued at £4.5 million pounds......
after alerting management was told it would be OK as it was designed by COMPUTOR.....
anyway three months in the fault occured and destroyed the machine plus several hundred thousand pounds worth of other peoples gear.....I was called into head office for a Bxxxxxing......
I explaind the problem again and also said that I sent a round robin email to everyone at head office.....I mean everyone....
had proof of this in my pocket.....I remember this so well as it was the very first email I had ever sent....
The head Honcho was really unhappy about all this but I had the pleasure of saying "I TOLD YOU SO" in front of the entire board......sorry but men in suits and men in overalls just dont mix.....hahaha....
in the end, insurance paid out, the company went down the tubes and I went to work elsewhere.....
I dont like paper work but sometimes u just need it......

 

[Duncan A]

Doing business needn't always be a bad experience, and records most certainly help keep everything sweet.
I ordered a pressurised water vessel from a Danish company. Nothing fancy, about £15k and slightly modified from one of their standard units, with some mods described by me in our correspondence (I didn't produce an engineering drawing).
They came back with a couple of queries for clarification, followed by the quote, scope of supply etc - and a drawing of the item to be agreed by me.
Very quick, very simple and no chance for disagreements.
As the customer, it forced me to be sure I'd thought everything through and it actually made it a pleasure to work with them.

Also, not all big companies are dishonourable. Receiving a manufacturer's quote for the repair of a large double-ended electric motor, I pretty much bit their arm off as the price was much less than expected (the manufacturer pretty much always comes in with a top dollar quote). They duly turned up, did the job and went their way. Some time later, talking to their project manager, he let slip that their quote was per end, not for both ends, but they had written it wrongly, hence the low price.
Rather than renege on the contract, they swallowed the loss in the likelihood of getting it back with future work. I'm sure they did but it just shows that the paperwork is important to all parties.
Duncan

 

[transatlantic]

Not to sound arrogant, but isn't this obvious? of course you would keep all documents.

 

[AES]

Not to sound arrogant, but isn't this obvious? of course you would keep all documents.

Yes transatlantic, absolutely obvious! Haven't you ever done something/failed to do something that was obvious? I have. And "accidents" (e.g. documents genuinely getting lost) DO happen sometimes, unless one is VERY VERY careful.

 

[MikeJhn]

Not to sound arrogant, but isn't this obvious? of course you would keep all documents.

Of course you do, but only if both parties produce the documents in the first place and/or confirm any conversation.