I'm not sawing straight : is it me or ...

[pompon44]

is it me ;-) ?

First of all, Happy New Year to all of you.

Next, as the subject states, I'm getting a hard time to saw straigth with the only saw I have so far : the Japanese-like (but Corean) Dozuki from LV. Seems the deeper I saw, the more to the left I deviate. And I'm incredibly good at reproducing the error ;-) (trying two saw lines side by side, they end rather parallel, though not straigth... hope that's clear).

So, I'm inclined to think I simply need more practise (and find a way to deviate on the other side), but for the sake of completness, I ask the question : could it be the saw itself which is at fault ?

Thanks,

 

[MikeW]

Straight-handled saws be they Japanese type pull saws or Gent's push type western saws easily saw off to one side or the other, almost always consistent with a lack of experience.

This is due to subtely turning the wrist on the cut stroke. If you aren't already doing so, try placing your index finger on top of the handle. While not good for long term sawing with a straight-handled saw, it can help demonstrate whether you are twisting the wrist even if it is very little.

Take care, Mike

 

[engineer one]

pompom, are you cutting down the ends of boards, or trying to cross cut.

veritas do a neat magnetic thing for cutting dovetails, and i am sure you could do the same by clamping a square bit of wood on the line, and running the saw down it. certainly works for end grain, and might help.


mind you that trick of mikes would be a good extra starting point too.
actually at what angle are you holding the saw?? slightly off horizontal is recommended for pull saws,not as steep as push saws. figure of 5 degrees comes to mind, but as near horizontal as possible would help.

paul :wink:

 

[Wiley Horne]

Hello,

Yes, it could be the saw. On the other hand, it could be technique.

As you have learned, a dozuki has a thin and flexible blade. Even though the saw has a spine, the blade will easily flex under pressure.

So the first thing to be done with a dozuki is to let the saw do the cutting. The minute a dozuki is forced in the cut, the blade will flex a little and start cutting a different path than the intended one--in other words, it will start going sideways.

A second thing to be aware of is that it is easy to pull a thin-blade saw off line just a little, as your arm swings down and back. You want your arm moving only from the elbow, and moving always in the same plane as the saw. The minute your hand swings into a different plane than the saw, you will begin to pull the saw off line.

For some reason, gripping the saw in a firm handshake can lead to both of the above problems. Try this:

-Relax. Relax your mouth. Relax your arm. Relaxed frame of mind.

-Hold the saw lightly between thumb and fingertips as you would a ripe peach.

-Make your saw test cuts.

Hope this helps.

Wiley

 

[Anonymous]

So the first thing to be done with a dozuki is to let the saw do the cutting. The minute a dozuki is forced in the cut, the blade will flex a little and start cutting a different path than the intended one--in other words, it will start going sideways.

That would be what I would look at first. I find this to be the case with most saw's, most tools in fact. They do the work, we just act as a guide to get it to work in the right place. I learned this after using a german bow saw. It was all over the place because (mainly) I was forcing the cut. (It also wasnt too sharp and had next to no set, but your saw is new and should be ok in that respect although never having used a dozoku type I dont know if it has any set??) I learnt to go with the speed of cut that the saw could handle, and despite it's faults got it to cut straightly. It might sound strange but what helped me to develop that skill was pushing heavy loads of window frame's on large 4 wheel barrows (2 fixed wheel's, 2 castors) They were VERY sensitive as to how you moved the steering handle and would easily swerve if you over steered. So I got to be aware of those muscles in my steering arm....
Also how you stand is important. My teacher said you stand carefully to a snooker table when you prepare to take a shot, standing at the bench to take a cut is no different.

 

[bugbear]

Straight-handled saws be they Japanese type pull saws or Gent's push type western saws easily saw off to one side or the other, almost always consistent with a lack of experience.

Hmm. I'd never really though about this before, but if one of the tasks of guiding a saw is "aiming" in the depth of the blade, a round (or even oval) handle offers little tactile feedback or control compared to a "normal" handle.

BugBear

 

[pompon44]

Hi all,

Thanks for your answers.

I do put my index finger on top of the handle, but I must confess I'm not really satisfied with my grip : does not seem natural at all.

This saw has a very long handle, and I don't really know where to put my hand so I'm comfortable with it...

Anyway, thanks for all your tips, I'll keep practising and see how it goes.

BTW, would a more traditional handle change the game (i.e. would it be easier to saw straight with a western-style saw, or is it just different ?)

Thanks,

 

[woodbloke]

I had similar problems with these Jap saws in that a totally different sawing action is needed. I agree that the saw needs to be held in the 'ripe peach' mode, that is very lightly and I found that the saw was most comfortable to use at maybe 15-20 degrees from the horizontal, the wrist then is not twisted to be on top of the handle. Mainly though, very little effort is needed to make it work correctly, too much downward pressure and it will tend to veer away from the line.

What may be of significance here tho' is that Jap saws were never intended to be used at a bench. Japanese craftsmen use them (how I don't know) on the floor somehow.

FWIW I've given up on Jap saws (including everything else Japanese) and gone back to western style kit which suits me better - Rob

 

[Evergreen]

As Rob has said, the traditional Japanese saw is not intended for use with a western style bench or saw horse. The Japanese demonstrator at the 2005 Axminster show worked entirely sitting or standing on his work pieces. No bench, not even a Workmate. For example, he needed to cut a number of large tenons and so he lined up the pieces of wood on the floor with the ends to be cut tilted upwards by resting them on a spare piece of wood. He then stood on the pieces of wood as he cut the tenons using a two handled pull saw. He could do this because the stroke was so short. It was amazingly fast, efficient and accurate.

I have one Japanese pull saw which has a very fine tooth, flexible blade. It's good for cross cutting small mouldings but wanders in a deeper cut however carefully and gently I hold it. I think I'm going to stick with western style saws from now on.

Regards.

 

[woodbloke]

Evergreen wrote:

he needed to cut a number of large tenons and so he lined up the pieces of wood on the floor with the ends to be cut tilted upwards by resting them on a spare piece of wood. He then stood on the pieces of wood as he cut the tenons using a two handled pull saw. He could do this because the stroke was so short. It was amazingly fast, efficient and accurate

I saw the same guy at the show that year and it was impressive....I'd like to see him do the same stuff on some hard English oak of the same dimensions. All the stuff he did was on soft pine, which makes me think.. :-k - Rob

 

[Paul Chapman]

I've tried one Japanese saw but can't get on with it at all. The handle just feels wrong. I've taken the view that they offer very little benefit in relation to all the effort that would be involved in learning the correct technique. And as most seem designed to work on soft woods, I've decided to stick with western-style saws.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Anonymous]

I tend to agree with the last few post's, in that I prefer traditional English style of saw's, I'm more comfortable with them and am able to cope with sharpening also. To be fair I have a couple of shark pull saws (pistol grip type) which as far as sharpness goes easily outlastred several bahco profcut's/stanlye jet cut's (in the days befroe I got me some good old Distom's and S&J's) when I was temporaly seduced by the universal obiqitousness of disposable's etc-and are still reasonably sharp. I mostly use them to flush cut stubs of the spindles on chair seat bottom's as there's no set so they dont scar like a English saw with set attitude would :lol: But they equally did a good job of cutting 4x4 fence posts, used one to rip a door bottom edge etc. Its whatever you get on with best etc etc

 

[Alf]

I'd like to see him do the same stuff on some hard English oak of the same dimensions. All the stuff he did was on soft pine, which makes me think.. :-k - Rob

Yeah, makes me think I'm gonna use more pine... :lol:

I'm another one of these folks who prefers the "western" style saw. I have a hunch fewer people would be quite so wowed about Japanese saws if their experience with Western ones wasn't only one of hardpoint and/or blunt examples.

Cheers, Alf

 

[bugbear]

As Rob has said, the traditional Japanese saw is not intended for use with a western style bench or saw horse. The Japanese demonstrator at the 2005 Axminster show worked entirely sitting or standing on his work pieces. No bench, not even a Workmate. For example, he needed to cut a number of large tenons and so he lined up the pieces of wood on the floor with the ends to be cut tilted upwards by resting them on a spare piece of wood. He then stood on the pieces of wood as he cut the tenons using a two handled pull saw. He could do this because the stroke was so short. It was amazingly fast, efficient and accurate.

I don't know wether this is due to intrinsic merit in the saw, or truly remarkable skill on the sawyer.

Anyway, I'll just post...

http://www.wdynamic.com/galoots/4images ... ge_id=2730

BugBear

 

[woodbloke]

Again, as shown in the pic....its all soft pine. If that was all nice, hard, English oak I fancy he'd be stuggling a tad more 8) :lol: - Rob

 

[David C]

I have had many western saws with uneven set.

These will always drift one way.

Korea is not a place noted for high quality saws.

Just a suggestion, check to see if the set is even.

David

 

[engineer one]

i do think a lot of this is moot.
unless you can practice with a saw on a number of woods, you are never going to be truly happy, and able to cut straight lines.

i do agree that people (me included ) get seduced by the japanese saws that do not need setting up, although i could never have done what jim kingshott did and sharpen and set one.

i find it difficult, mainly because of lack of practice, but also because many past saws were not properly sharpened, using a western saw. i am sure that if i could afford a wenzloff i might be able to practice and learn more :-k now how am i going to sort that??? :lol:
i have an LN dovetail but one problem for me is a finger which was broken
a long time ago and not properly re-set., being the little finger is causes problems with closed handles, so maybe i have to learn on open handles.

however, unless you break lots of pallets, it is difficult to get sufficient wood to practice on.

paul :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Just as a humoruos anecdote, when I was struggling with that german bow saw and couldnt get it to cut to a line, I tried all sorts until the penny dropped and I realised I was forcing the cut. I had that thing wound tighter than a roman ballistic thinking a touch of "extra tension" would prevent the blade twisting. This didnt work of course seeing as the blade was blunt and virtually setless, but I learnt the hard way. One day I thought it needs MORE tension in that thing so I gave the toggle bar yet another couple of twist's until the inevitable happened and the cords snapped at which point the handles whipped back as quick as a poacher's trap and one half hit me smack on the side of the head just above my left ear. After the inevitable outburst of expliteves I felt the side of my head and I could actually feel a tom and Jerry golf ball type bump sprouting :shock: . That incident taught me never to over tighten the cords on a bow saw :roll: :lol: :lol:

 

[pompon44]

Well, I've yet to discover difficulties that go with hardwood... Still playing with fir and pine for the moment, but that's good enough to keep me busy for a while, I guess ;-)

I've tried a two hand grip on that long handle, and results are marginally better. But still I'm deviating to the left when going down the board (starting from the edge).

David C., thanks for the advice, but owing the very little set this saw has, I have no idea how I can measure it. Any hint ? And assuming the set is uneven, how am I supposed to correct that ? Like a western saw with a light touch of a sharpening stone ?

Also, (yep, I know this might be a FAQ), if I'd like to test a Western saw, is there something middle-range (price & quality speaking) that would be a good bet, or would Wenzloff/Adria/LN be the only way to insure a working saw (w/o tuning, I must admit I've gone the rehab route with planes, and I'm no good at it, so my saws will be new). And for cutting primarily tenons, do I really need two saws (one rip, one crosscut), or one is enough (and which one ?).

See, I thought planes were a complicated business. And now the saws


Regards,

 

[Anonymous]

however, unless you break lots of pallets, it is difficult to get sufficient wood to practice on.

Maybe get some better quality stock to practice on?? I used to refurbish pallet's on piecework. I saw many sort's of timber used for original construction including mahoganny/luaan types of hard wood's, oak, beech, birch etc etc all sorts of stuff mostly poor quality. We sometimes used chestnut for brewery pallet's. But most are made from fast grown softwood's with knots/split's/all the usual faults but good enough for pallets with a single life expectancy (we bought scrap ones repaired the odd board or block as nescacery with new and sell them on). I know theres a case for using what is to hand but maybe the poor quality is making life unnecaserily hard for you?

PS Paul, a tip for fast dismanteling of pallets without cracking the boards-get a good straight bit of oak about 3 to 4 foot long and about 1 1/4 inches square. Chamfer it off on the table saw to make it octagon shaped, then use it to lever off the boards. Put the oak bar as near to the pallet blocks as you can, and lever off the board next to the one you want off. Use a quick firm downwards pressure. We used to put the pallet on the floor and stamp down on the oak bar to get them off. After a while the edge's get roughened and dented this stops the bar sliding out. If you try to hammer the boards off from behind even with a block in between they will almost always crack as they are usually machine nailed on with annullar shank T nails that are next to impossible to remove. For some reason the bar method is more forgiving maybe it allows the boards to flex a little?? also its less strenuous and faster (you gotta be fast or you earn nowt!!) :lol: