If you're thinking of emigrating to Europe and you're not so young think again perhaps

[Blackswanwood]

I’m all for a bit of “thread drift” but once Tony crops up any thread inevitably turns to his views on the current government delivered in a confrontational style. It would potentially be interesting if he had anything new to say but it’s the same old stuff that’s already been well aired.

 

[woodieallen]

Do you think the Conservative party or the Reform Party would do better? ( A = the former didnt over the last 14 years and the latter offer nothing of substance)

by the way, the people moaning bitterly about Labour increasing taxes never seem to put forward any suggestions of how they would fund public services which are starved to the point of collapse...........would you like to venture some suggestions?


The harsh reality is that this government inherited a country on its knees, destroyed by 40+ years of neo liberalism, brexit, covid corruption.............what miracles did you think labour were going to pull out of the bag?

So, so easy to bring out the old chestnuts.. Old history. We're interested in the here and now. And it is blatantly clear that before the election the country was in growth. Now we've got two months of negative growth from a Govt who have promised us growth. They haven't. They don't know how to.

Or to put things in context. Our central heating comes on for three hours in the morning. The thermostat is set at 14 degrees. It then comes on again for another couple of hours in the evening. Thermostat stil at 14 degrees. Night time thermostat is set to 12 degrees. THAT is the reality of a Labour Govt.

 

[selectortone]

'Tony's thoughts on the current UK govt., and various unrelated issues as they occur to him.'

Not exactly 'Ulysees' though, is it.

 

[RobinBHM]

So, so easy to bring out the old chestnuts.. Old history. We're interested in the here and now

the state of public service, the state of the economy, the housing crisis are all predicated on the past

Now we've got two months of negative growth from a Govt who have promised us growth

lets look at 2023 growth for the year was 0.3%

4 Dec 2024
The IMF lifted its forecast for UK GDP growth in 2024 from 0.7% to 1.1%. It left its forecast for UK GDP growth in 2025 unchanged at 1.5%.

so compared to last year of Conservatives things are improving





I am sure you have some great ideas for how you wouldve done things differently mind you I notice you still shrink from saying how you think Conservatives or Reform wouldve done

we have over 7 million people on NHS waiting lists, prisions about to collapse, schools falling down...........please can you tell me where you think the govt should get the money from?

Im not a fan of this Labour govt, but they are still better than the previous bunch.

 

[ey_tony]

So, so easy to bring out the old chestnuts.. Old history. We're interested in the here and now. And it is blatantly clear that before the election the country was in growth. Now we've got two months of negative growth from a Govt who have promised us growth. They haven't. They don't know how to.

Or to put things in context. Our central heating comes on for three hours in the morning. The thermostat is set at 14 degrees. It then comes on again for another couple of hours in the evening. Thermostat stil at 14 degrees. Night time thermostat is set to 12 degrees. THAT is the reality of a Labour Govt.

If it was a Tory government who'd robbed the pensioners to pay the Tory equivalent of train drivers we wouldn't be hearing the last of it but because it isn't, all we get in these threads is a muted response and verbose attacks on such as me for daring to point out that this Labour government is pants with Starmer being about as much good as a one legged man in an backside kicking contest!

As for this Labour government being better than the previous lot, sorry but I'm afraid they're not!

 

[Hypnotic Chimera]

As I understand it from reading up on it at the weekend there are mutuelles which are effectively social insurance funds (not for profit) who provide “top up cover” for treatments and items provided by the state health provider but not paid for by them. It’s not complusory to have this cover.

Alongside this private health insurance (as we know it in the UK) also operates which includes and goes beyond the cover provided by the mutuelles.

I'll add to this - in that if your earnings fall above a certain threshold, it IS mandatory to take out "mutuelle" health insurance.

 

[Hypnotic Chimera]

As for this Labour government being better than the previous lot, sorry but I'm afraid they're not!

From what I'm reading, you aren't "afraid" to say that, and the only reason that you think this is that you're immovably and ideologically wedded to that viewpoint, with no evidence or material to justify that position. None at all. Just your feelies. And I strongly suspect that no amount of evidenced and observable reality will change your view. But hey, your feelies are more important than pesky reality or facts, right? At least, they are to you. Other people's mileage may vary. Moreover, it's highly likely that other people's views will be led by facts and not opinion. I get it. You're bitterly opposed to even the notion of a Labour government, hence all the kicking and screaming and continual bleat bleat bleating personal criticism of Starmer, no matter what the reality actually is...

Moving on, the real facts will become clearer as we move forwards, but I'll go on record AGAIN, and note these several things...

-Workers rights bill. (But "down with that kind of thing"!)
-Increased minimum wage. (But "down with that kind of thing too", right?)
-An end to transport strikes. (Which was costing the country more than a wage settlement ever would have - "but that's a price well worth paying if it's payed out to crush an ideology of group negotiation", right?) (And don't mention that the private companies were still extracting a profit from the tax payer at the same time, oh no, don't mention that little gem.)
-A vast increase in the volume of asylum claims being assessed beginning to cut into the vast numbers housed in hotels that was directly due to previous government cutting the processing capacity to virtually zero (probably deliberately in order to stoke the culture war).
-13,500 failed claimants already deported/sent back, so far (harumph, but "that isn't enough", or something!)
-Proactive plans to tackle hospital waiting lists - which is partly responsible for a proportion of population being unable to work - meaning social benefits being paid out instead of tax revenue from their employment.
-Agreement with EU States to tackle illegal immigration gangs - which has somehow not featured very strongly in RWM, go figure - maybe they'd have to divulge that Brexit meant people trafficking into UK, originating from EU, was illegal when UK was in EU, but not illegal in EU now that UK is out - which I find particularly poignant and, dare I say, a hilarious "told you so".
-Attempts to intervene and mitigate the £100bn per year loss as a direct consequence of Brexit.

Cor, the list is looking pretty satisfying thus far.

But don't allow observable reality to get in the way of your immovable ideologically wedded view, eh?

 

[Spectric]

Last warning as thread drift does occur but at least keep the drift on the other side of the channel and not in Uk politics.

Europe has many issues that are growing and much discontent with different populations unhappy with their governments so not an ideal place to move to and there total economy is now only about 50% of the American economy so maybe the states would be a better destination and the bonus is they speak our lingo. They also seem to have a good woodworking aspect and some pretty large tool stores so head west not east.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

I have been disappointed by Labour thus far - they promised order out of chaos, economic growth, unleash investment etc etc. Let's hope they improve over their remaining term - we are stuck with them for the next 4 years and currently there is no credible alternative.

-Workers rights bill. (But "down with that kind of thing"!)
-Increased minimum wage. (But "down with that kind of thing too", right?)

The UK has a real problem with being competitive internationally. Desirable those these may be, they have to be affordable.

There may be an argument that better minimum pay and further rights will somehow motivate folk to worker harder or smarter. I am unconvinced - they potentially drive the UK deeper into the economic mire.

-An end to transport strikes. (Which was costing the country more than a wage settlement ever would have - "but that's a price well worth paying if it's payed out to crush an ideology of group negotiation", right?) (And don't mention that the private companies were still extracting a profit from the tax payer at the same time, oh no, don't mention that little gem.)

Train drivers, to whom I assume you are referring, are very well paid. Giving in to group action of this sort is PRECISELY the same behaviour that drives capitalism at its worst - the use of power to force an outcome rather than negotiation and/or arbitration.

There is a strong argument for withdrawing support from the rail sector completely - it is an utterly inefficient way of providing transport in the 21st century.

-A vast increase in the volume of asylum claims being assessed beginning to cut into the vast numbers housed in hotels that was directly due to previous government cutting the processing capacity to virtually zero (probably deliberately in order to stoke the culture war).

The previous government may have reduced the resources applied to asylum claims to deter new claims and/or a product of incompetence. Culture wars have little to do with it.

-13,500 failed claimants already deported/sent back, so far (harumph, but "that isn't enough", or something!)

Guardian article (usually decent journalism) - "13,460 returns were recorded, most of them voluntary" "deportation flights to at least seven countries, including Pakistan, Nigeria and Albania. Sources ........ confirmed that 37 people were removed on the Pakistan flight"

This compares with 23500 illegal boat arrivals in the last 6 months - hardly impressive.

-Proactive plans to tackle hospital waiting lists - which is partly responsible for a proportion of population being unable to work - meaning social benefits being paid out instead of tax revenue from their employment.

I am sure this is partly true - but the election pledge of 40k extra appointments a week (2m pa) is utterly trivial. Even if each extra appointment lead to a reduction of one on the waiting list (highly implausible) it would take 3 years to clear it! I am waiting for a proactive plan!!

-Agreement with EU States to tackle illegal immigration gangs - which has somehow not featured very strongly in RWM, go figure - maybe they'd have to divulge that Brexit meant people trafficking into UK, originating from EU, was illegal when UK was in EU, but not illegal in EU now that UK is out - which I find particularly poignant and, dare I say, a hilarious "told you so".

We have fought a war on drugs for many decades with the full support of the EU, yet drugs are still rampant. Like drugs, the people traffickers make huge profits.

I do not believe that agreement with Germany or any other states will have a material impact on the trade. It creates the illusion of action but with no material impact.

IMHO a three element deterrent approach is required:

• agree and publish the only basis upon which asylum will be granted
• make available online application
• if the claim fails to meet the criteria published - deport within 3 months

Alternatively there could be an argument made that those who evidence the resolve, initiative and energy to get to the UK in this way should be welcomed. The UK needs a clear strategy, not half ar5ed politics!

 

[Chris152]

maybe the states would be a better destination and the bonus is they speak our lingo.

What a truly horrific thought! Canada, for sure, but the US?! A fundamentally dysfunctional state. I really feel for the good people of the country who are stuck with the kind of 'political' nonsense at play there. And as for the health service (which the thread was supposed to be about) - fine if you've got plenty of dosh. Kids with you? Send them to school in their flak jackets. Etc.

 

[Jacob]

.......


We have fought a war on drugs for many decades with the full support of the EU, yet drugs are still rampant. Like drugs, the people traffickers make huge profits.
.......

That's basic capitalism for you!
Decriminalising both of them ends the illegality and makes civilised control and regulation more possible.
We should not have these issues dominated by criminals and causing unnecessary suffering and death.
As it is the only beneficiaries are the criminals and the hard right; Fartrage and co. drumming up hatred and anxiety.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

That's basic capitalism for you!
Decriminalising both of them ends the illegality and makes civilised control and regulation more possible.
We should not have these issues dominated by criminals and causing unnecessary suffering and death.

Capitalism is here to stay - like it or not. That leaves two options:

• decriminalise that which apparently cannot be effectively mandated - it then become legitimate territory for taxation, standards, regulation, etc. If invented today I understand tobacco and alcohol would be banned - yet they exist fairly harmoniously in society
• increased sanctions to making an effective deterrent on those who would otherwise trade in drugs or people. Current laws and punishments are simply inadequate. This may likely involve that which we regard as distasteful or unacceptable.

I have no fixed view, save that the pretence of action with no real effect is either dishonest, pointless or both.

 

[Hypnotic Chimera]

The UK has a real problem with being competitive internationally. Desirable those these may be, they have to be affordable.

There may be an argument that better minimum pay and further rights will somehow motivate folk to worker harder or smarter. I am unconvinced - they potentially drive the UK deeper into the economic mire.

Depends on the extent to which you take the interconnectedness of all of the factors.

To illustrate the interconnectedness that I refer to is the position in which the UK finds itself whereby a huge number of low paid workers are only being paid low wages in order for the companies employing them to make "excess" profit. And the way in which these low paid workers must depend upon "working tax credits" to survive.

In effect this creates an entire ecosystem whereby large companies are being subsidised by the tax payer to engage in large profit making. This is exactly the type of dysfunctional system brought about by low wages that has driven the UK into the economic mire.
All you have to do is witness and acknowledge the widening of the wealth gap in the UK to understand this. Tax does not belong in the pool of private profits.

Train drivers, to whom I assume you are referring, are very well paid. Giving in to group action of this sort is PRECISELY the same behaviour that drives capitalism at its worst - the use of power to force an outcome rather than negotiation and/or arbitration.

No. I was categorically not referring to train drivers. You are regurgitating a disingenuous narrative, whether that be on purpose or not. I said transport strikes - you knee ****** to the "rail drivers". The train drivers are a minority in the sector (and actually do need to be financially rewarded for the responsibility of directly holding tens or hundreds of passengers' safety - the law stops at them and not the rail operators or train companies - risks are solely held by drivers themselves - but let's not allow the truth to get in the way of a disingenuous culture war motivated attack on some workers in the attempt to divide and conquer...)
I was referring to ALL of the other workers within the rail sector. The control workers, platform staff, ticket officers, information counter, cleaners, rail engineers, etc, etc. Much of the sector's pay is well below national averages and had been suppressed by rail companies to extract maximum profit. The companies take zero risk and even when no trains run, are contractually entitled to extract profit from the tax payer.

It is absolutely time to take rail network and operators back into public ownership.

Transport is a vital and fundamental requirement of a capitalism economy.

There is a strong argument for withdrawing support from the rail sector completely - it is an utterly inefficient way of providing transport in the 21st century.

France. Germany.

The previous government may have reduced the resources applied to asylum claims to deter new claims and/or a product of incompetence. Culture wars have little to do with it.


Guardian article (usually decent journalism) - "13,460 returns were recorded, most of them voluntary" "deportation flights to at least seven countries, including Pakistan, Nigeria and Albania. Sources ........ confirmed that 37 people were removed on the Pakistan flight"

This compares with 23500 illegal boat arrivals in the last 6 months - hardly impressive.

Early days.
The measure is that the processing capacity on asylum claims has been ramped up significantly. Already. Voluntary removals are still motivated by failed asylum claims and failed asylum claims ONLY result from processing said claims, not holding them in a backlog until they decide to leave.... so whichever way you present it, it is still positive progress COMPARED TO PREVIOUS GOVT, (which is what I was using as the measuring stick - if you have a different measuring stick, please go ahead and divulge

I am sure this is partly true - but the election pledge of 40k extra appointments a week (2m pa) is utterly trivial. Even if each extra appointment lead to a reduction of one on the waiting list (highly implausible) it would take 3 years to clear it! I am waiting for a proactive plan!!

I'm sure you've been keeping up and also understand that this cannot be fixed in the short term. Brexit has had direct and significant harm to the NHS and the entire ecosystem of healthcare professional training needs time to re-invent within the UK....

We have fought a war on drugs for many decades with the full support of the EU, yet drugs are still rampant. Like drugs, the people traffickers make huge profits.

I do not believe that agreement with Germany or any other states will have a material impact on the trade. It creates the illusion of action but with no material impact.

IMHO a three element deterrent approach is required:

• agree and publish the only basis upon which asylum will be granted
• make available online application
• if the claim fails to meet the criteria published - deport within 3 months

Alternatively there could be an argument made that those who evidence the resolve, initiative and energy to get to the UK in this way should be welcomed. The UK needs a clear strategy, not half ar5ed politics!

Tackling the gangs could not be achieved without first forging this agreement. Now that smuggling people into UK is illegal in Germany (whereas it wasn't after Brexit until just last week), Germany can also enforce within the EU, and progress can branch out from there.

All I'm reporting are the facts on the current state of PROGRESS. Where there was zero progress under previous government, we now have a tangible and enforceable legal treaty set in place, from which to progress further.

 

[Jacob]

Capitalism is here to stay - like it or not. That leaves two options:

• decriminalise that which apparently cannot be effectively mandated - it then become legitimate territory for taxation, standards, regulation, etc. If invented today I understand tobacco and alcohol would be banned - yet they exist fairly harmoniously in society

Makes sense. In general most recreational drugs are less harmful than tobacco or alcohol and would be better for public health, especially if regulated and controlled.

• increased sanctions to making an effective deterrent on those who would otherwise trade in drugs or people. Current laws and punishments are simply inadequate. This may likely involve that which we regard as distasteful or unacceptable.

People are already risking death and dying to get here. Do you mean it should be even more dangerous? That would crank up the fees for the smugglers and make it a smaller but much more profitable industry.

I have no fixed view, save that the pretence of action with no real effect is either dishonest, pointless or both.

It's both.

 

[John Brown]

Last warning as thread drift does occur but at least keep the drift on the other side of the channel and not in Uk politics.

Europe has many issues that are growing and much discontent with different populations unhappy with their governments so not an ideal place to move to and there total economy is now only about 50% of the American economy so maybe the states would be a better destination and the bonus is they speak our lingo. They also seem to have a good woodworking aspect and some pretty large tool stores so head west not east.

Why not introduce your own thread drift?
I suppose, as a moderator, you're allowed to do whatever you want..
I waa going to move to America about 12 years ago, but I wouldn't dream of it these days. My American in-laws all want to move over here right now.