I bought a new (old) plane, and found some strange damage.

[Sheffield Tony]

I would go with the sole markings being possibly remains of cleaned up corrosion from storage sitting on something.

The iron looks like the result of someone struggling to sharpen without a suitable grinder or talent. If removing a lot of material by hand (as a result of damage say), easy to let the bevel angle creep up, and squareness suffer. One of my second hand planes had a bevel which was rounded, and at the very cutting edge steeper than the bedding angle of the plane. Would not cut at all. One of the issues with clumsy freehand sharpening is that a few strokes at too high an angle can take a long time to correct.

 

[MikeG.]

.........No probs,
On a lot of the irons that I have come across, (not checked since I've stopped using the honing guide) they have been tapered in width.
I didn't notice this, until I was having problems trying to get a near square hone.
You can see evidence of the foundry marks, a bit of roughness/not clean edge on the edges on most irons I have.......

If you are asking if the iron has been straightened up in some way to make the sides parallel, then the answer is that there is no way to tell. The sides were rusty when I received it, so I rubbed them down lightly.

However, your original claim was that I couldn't possibly tell if the blade was sharpened out of square because the sides wouldn't be parallel. They are parallel, and it was a mile out of square.

Even if the sides hadn't been parallel I would simply have put a mid-line down the centre of the blade and measured off that. Whichever way you look at it, the blade had been butchered by some god-awful freehand sharpening.......and I can't begin to think why anyone would ever put a massive and steep back bevel on a plane blade (never mind that it tapered).

 

[custard]

when it came to cleaning up the sole, I found these lines. They're not from planing, so I can only imagine that they come from someone's clumsy attempt to flatten the sole, or something like that. Does anyone have any ideas as to the cause?

Planing the edges of plywood?

Some ply seems to have glass hard adhesive layers that can knock seven bells out of a plane's sole, it's bad on metal planes but it can massacre a wooden plane. I've often wondered if it's not entirely coincidental that wooden planes fell out of favour just as ply was growing in popularity!

 

[Ttrees]

........it would appear to have a concave honed iron in the plane...........

......... There was a convex "bevel", with quite coarse marks, showing it was sharpened freehand on a stone. ..........

Concave meaning side to side? or hollow ground?

In other words, with a very very slight camber, or with a straight blade, if the sole was badly convex, which becomes more apparent with a no.8 if lapped on a wider abrasive for instance...
the protruding iron, on a fine setting would only be in contact with the wood on each side of the plane.
Presuming that the wood is flat in width.
Nothing to do with hollow ground bevels, straight bevels or convex bevels on the cutting iron.

Tom

 

[MikeG.]

when it came to cleaning up the sole, I found these lines. They're not from planing, so I can only imagine that they come from someone's clumsy attempt to flatten the sole, or something like that. Does anyone have any ideas as to the cause?

Planing the edges of plywood?

Some ply seems to have glass hard adhesive layers that can knock seven bells out of a plane's sole, it's bad on metal planes but it can massacre a wooden plane. I've often wondered if it's not entirely coincidental that wooden planes fell out of favour just as ply was growing in popularity!

I'm certain they're not planing marks, custard. They extend the entire length of the sole, and bar a wiggle on the back of one, are uniform and parallel. I think you're right about ply, though.

 

[Ttrees]

If you are asking if the iron has been straightened up in some way to make the sides parallel, then the answer is that there is no way to tell. The sides were rusty when I received it, so I rubbed them down lightly.

It would take a lot more than a light rub down to get rid of the foundry marks on the sides of some of my plane irons.
so I suspect it could have been worked on.
I'm sure some plane study gurus might have more insight on this
Tom

 

[MikeG.]

......In other words, with a very very slight camber, or with a straight blade, if the sole was badly convex

I've just said that it was (and is) flat. Very flat. There is no convexity about the sole whatever.

which becomes more apparent with a no.8 if lapped on a wider abrasive for instance...

This is a no. 5-1/2, but lapping any plane on any abrasive wider than the plane will produce a flat sole if the surface under the abrasive is flat.

the protruding iron, on a fine setting would only be in contact with the wood on each side of the plane.
Presuming that the wood is flat in width.
Nothing to do with hollow ground bevels, straight bevels or convex bevels on the cutting iron.......

For some reason you appear to be talking about a set of circumstances which would not only be extremely rare (planes usually wear hollow in the middle of the sole), but bear no relation whatever to my plane.

 

[MikeG.]

.......more than a light rub down to get rid of the foundry marks on the sides of some of my plane irons.
so I suspect it could have been worked on.
I'm sure some plane study gurus might have more insight on this ........

So what? Your claim was that I wouldn't be able to tell if the iron had been sharpened out of square. You were wrong.

 

[Ttrees]

No, things just become a lot more apparent and the level of tolerance goes higher when you start using the cap iron to its full extent.
I find I need to pair the cap iron with the cutter to find out if I have a suitable camber, and for the cap iron to still have effect.
Presuming you want to get a tearout free surface.
Tom

 

[MikeG.]

This isn't about the cap iron. You can't drag every conversation onto cap irons and reference surfaces.

This plane is now beautifully set up with a razor sharp blade and the cap iron tight to the edge. The sole is completely flat. The frog is flat both where it meets the body casting, and where the iron sits. It planes absolutely perfectly. OK? Can you take that as read?

So, have you got anything at all to contribute on the subject of the marks on the sole, or about the horrendous sharpening I inherited? Anything else is off-topic.

 

[D_W]

they could just be an etch or from a past corrosion issue, now long since removed with cleanup........

Yes, you're probably right, D_W. I've got some kitchen roll soaked in vinegar lying over the sole at the moment, and I'll top it up through the day. That should get rid of the marks.

Weirdly, and you'll like this, despite the horrendous sharpening of the iron, the cap iron had been well prepared, with the underside "sharpened" (undercut), and the top rounded over nicely. With the blade so far out of square there is no way anyone could have got the cap iron tight to the cutting edge, so that may have been just a hang-over from an earlier owner.

Probably - I had that thought when I saw it was out of square. Once in a while, a factory chipbreaker is grossly out of square and the iron is made to match it, but more often, the iron is far out of square due to neglect.

That said, whatever level of square the cap iron is in, that dictates for the iron.

I am a freehander because of that. If the edge starts to get a little out of whack with the cap, I can easily manage to nudge it back over a few sharpenings, because i'm constantly looking at it.

Friend of mine who is a major adherent to jigs and mechanicals for everything (in his terms, the less hands touch wood, and the more jigs and machines, the better the project will be). He is tortured by some of these vintage irons where the irons themselves are tapered along their width, because the sides aren't parallel.

(puts on gimmick hat...get ready) This is just another situation where freehanding and cap iron work together, and it's a good reason to use the cap. On these metal planes, the cap can be off from the iron a little bit - it tells you that you need to make a correction - but still work perfectly fine as you work you way back into it.

I'm so far down the road with how I do things (I think i could outplane everyone - don't we all?) in terms of joules spent to get to certain volume used or surface condition, but it's one of the things I take completely for granted as a freehander on the lazy side.

(I still would've corrected that squareness, but I would've laid the cap iron on it and then markered the protruding part).

As an unintentional mentor of mine often points out, most of these planes have been put away after careless use, and you can't make judgement off of them. Lots of the very old texts showed workers freehanding and then prescribed extremely rigid allowances for visuals of the sharpened iron.

If I only had one electric item in the workshop, it would first be a lamp, but the grinder (and a good one) wouldn't be far after that.

 

[Tasky]

However, your original claim was that I couldn't possibly tell if the blade was sharpened out of square because the sides wouldn't be parallel. They are parallel, and it was a mile out of square.

He suggested mine would be out of parallel too, so I also checked.
Mine were almost a full 0.03º out of parallel... Yours there looks to be, what, 0.25º?

I'm certain they're not planing marks, custard. They extend the entire length of the sole, and bar a wiggle on the back of one, are uniform and parallel. I think you're right about ply, though.

What about sap burns?
I notice my plane sole can get quite warm when I'm 'going at it', as it were - With the right (or wrong) kind of wood, might this streak hot sap burns into the metal and stain it, or something?
From Cucumbering up Her kitchen knives, I know that even stainless steel is stain-less and not stain-proof...

 

[Bm101]

*very very cautiously*
"But I thought you had enough tools and so did I?"
I feel a little betrayed Mike if I'm honest.
:?

 

[MikeG.]

However, your original claim was that I couldn't possibly tell if the blade was sharpened out of square because the sides wouldn't be parallel. They are parallel, and it was a mile out of square.

He suggested mine would be out of parallel too, so I also checked.
Mine were almost a full 0.03º out of parallel... Yours there looks to be, what, 0.25º?..

Oooh, now don't go making me do some trigonometry!! Put it this way: there is less than .05mm difference in the width over about 150mm. Plus or minus a gnat's, that parallel.

What about sap burns?
I notice my plane sole can get quite warm when I'm 'going at it', as it were - With the right (or wrong) kind of wood, might this streak hot sap burns into the metal and stain it, or something?....

I've never seen that happen, although I've often seen sap on the sole of a plane. Interesting idea, but I'll stick to it having sat on something for a long time whilst stored.

 

[MikeG.]

*very very cautiously*
"But I thought you had enough tools and so did I?"
I feel a little betrayed Mike if I'm honest.
:?

Sorry!

I've been quite happy just with a number 4, but edge jointing longer boards is a bit trickier with a short plane, and I've done quite a bit of that lately. As my eyes deteriorate with age I'm finding that task harder, and I fouled it up horribly for a friend a few weeks back. With him standing watching, it was quite embarrassing. So now I have one more tool than I strictly need, (and it's messed up my plane storage completely), but for £28 and an hours work, and after a lifetime of planing with just one plane, I don't feel tooooo guilty.

As an aside, I really put this purchase off for years because I was expecting to receive my father's tools (you know, that being in the will and all). The executors see things differently. My father had a number 7, a couple of 5-1/2s, and a 4, plus some woodies.

 

[MikeG.]

..........whatever level of square the cap iron is in, that dictates for the iron.........

Or t'other way around. The cap iron on this one is square, and if it wasn't, I'd have squared it up.

 

[David C]

Back bevels can be extremely useful for preventing tearout.

15 degrees for difficult domestic timbers like ripple ash and 25 degrees for dense interlocked exotics.

It is true that they don't need to be so wide !
David Charlesworth

 

[MikeG.]

Back bevels can be extremely useful for preventing tearout.

15 degrees for difficult domestic timbers like ripple ash and 25 degrees for dense interlocked exotics.

It is true that they don't need to be so wide !
David Charlesworth

You'd probably want it parallel with the edge of the plane, too....

A 25 degree back bevel gives the iron a 110 degree angle of attack, which puts it in scraper plane territory......which is why it works.

 

[Ttrees]

My condolences Mike, that battle sounds shameful and disheartening .
Let no man be without his fathers tools!
I do hope they go to their rightful owner
Best wishes to you
Tom

 

[D_W]

..........whatever level of square the cap iron is in, that dictates for the iron.........

Or t'other way around. The cap iron on this one is square, and if it wasn't, I'd have squared it up.

if the edge of the cap and the rest of the cap are basically planar, this is bad policy unless the cap is so far out of square so as to cause a problem in use.

But keep in mind, I am not using a square. A cap that is out two degrees means nothing if the iron matches it, and it's no harder to do this freehand than it is to try to get an iron perfectly square (which may be necessary in some shoulder planes, but even then, the sole tells you when the iron is right, not a square on the iron).

Same is true for skew planes. this is a fairly important skill in terms of improving ease. Not the freehand sharpening as a matter of winning an argument on a forum, but rather just making things in the shop easier. It should be the goal to do this, it requires nothing and is free, faster, and if you are good at grinding, there will be no difference in iron sharpness vs. a very prescriptive method (perhaps with the addition of a leather strop, there will be fewer false starts/false edges, etc).

if, however, this type of thing is not masterable for some reason, then certainly, go back to the jig. Whatever you're doing has to work. If it works for someone else and not you, then do what works for you. It's not the army.