I blame Roy Underhill!

[lanemaux]

Hi Andy , been following your thread with great interest. I watched the Roy Underhill program on this lathe (of course , who didn't?) and was very amused by his efforts. That guy can have fun mucking out stables , can't he ? Bet he would have gotten cleaner results with less time constraints. Nice work so far and wow she looks cool in her new home. Keep it up amigo , you are doing great!

 

[AndyT]

Thanks Lanemaux and everyone. It's really encouraging to know that I'm not the only one who likes this sort of old user powered machinery. I read somewhere it was a Barnes lathe that the Wright brothers had, so the sky's the limit eh?!

 

[AndyT]

The new belt arrived today. Not leather, but it should be practical and comes with an easy alligator fitting:

After careful measuring, fitting, taking it off again, shortening it, putting the bits back, it looked like this:

(Actually that picture was the first time around; the second time I got it straight. I was being careful and measuring how much length to allow for the clip.)

So, with the belt in place, tight enough to work, it was time to cut some metal. I centre punched the end of a bit of rusty scrap steel and put it into the three jaw scroll chuck. By the wonder of standards, Morse tapers go back to the era of this lathe and have remained in use, so the relatively new Jacobs chuck with 1MT quill that I bought to go in my Axi wood lathe is a perfect fit in the Barnes for jobs like drilling the end with a centre drill, to run on the dead centre.

See the little pile of swarf starting to form!

And here is the start of the first cut, using one of the original Buck and Hickman 3/8 x 3/4" one piece cutting tools. I don't know what sort of steel they are but they do seem hard enough, just. (I wonder if they might be more suitable for brass?)

Proper engineers will admire the special 'torn' finish that I am getting here - I was just pleased that it goes round and all the bits move that should!

I've got so many things to learn at once now. First off will be the tooling side of things - I am tempted to upgrade to some modern 10mm tooling. Should I just get a set with brazed on tips or go for the removable insert sort? New tooling would not have the huge overhang that these old tools do.

On my toolpost I don't have the double ring to adjust the height - with the tools I've got, there would be no room for it. But that does mean the only way I can adjust where the tip ends up is to put shims under the back. This changes the angle, which is probably wrong anyway...

I also have a holder for 3/16" square HSS - which I see is still available:

If I get some new HSS for this, I'm not sure there would be room for it all - will I be able to snap a 75mm or 100mm piece in two?

Another reason for the poor surface is that I don't have any cutting lubricant - I did put some oil on, which smoked quite nicely. What should I get? And how do I stop it splashing everywhere and making my lathe all mucky again? - and my spare wood!

Lots to learn, lots of questions, but I'm getting there. And my right leg is going to love this thing!! :lol: :lol:

 

[bugbear]

Get thee to a copy of "the Amateur's Lathe" by Sparey. Guy was a genius, and could write too.

BugBear

 

[chipmunk]

Hi Andy,
I'd stick to HSS toolbits - cheaper and more in keeping with the machine IMHO.

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Cutting-Tools/High-Speed-Steel-Toolbits in plain HSS or
http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-hss-tool-steel-prod23446/ with Cobalt

It comes in the right size for your holder but as you say will probably have to be cut (Dremel cut-off wheel or similar all around tool bit and then snap - safety specs :shock: ).

I think that you may have to be prepared to get your lovely machine mucky if you're going to use though :wink:

...but you may be able to get by with cutting paste like this Molyslip MCC...
http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Protection-Grease-Adhesives/Lubrication-and-Cutting-Aids
rather than really messy fluids/oils?

I am very envious :mrgreen:
HTH
Jon

 

[Richard T]

Suds oil. Several choices on EBay.

Not oil; it's water soluble and not soap, although it does smell of carbolic.

I need to get some too as I realised the other day that all the other jars I thought were suds turned out to be something else.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Hi Andy - the lathe's looking good - very good!

I'd agree with Chipmunk that HSS toolbits is the right way to go. The inserted tip bits, both the older Tungsten Carbide brazed-in sort and the more modern inserted tip Cermet types really need higher turning speeds than a treadle lathe can deliver to work properly. The other real advantage of HSS is that you can easily modify tool shapes with an offhand grinder, something you can't easily do with the other tool types. You can shorten the bought bits by nicking all round on the corner of an offhand grinder wheel and snapping by holding in a vice and tapping with a hammer.

On cutting oil, there are a couple of options. One is the water-soluable cutting fluid often called 'suds' in machine shops. This is more a coolant than a lubricant, and whilst correctly mixed it's supposed not to corrode machines, in practice it does a bit, especially if used infrequently. The better option is a neat cutting oil, which is less a coolant and more a cutting lubricant. One such is NC110, such as this offering from Reeves - http://shop.ajreeves.com/straight-cutti ... 7042-p.asp - the quantity is convenient; most industrial suppliers will want you to take a five gallon drum! This stuff does smoke a bit, but you don't need much - just apply with a small brush either as you're machining, or just before you run a cut. It has the advantage that it doesn't rust the machine, either. It helps a lot with improving surface finish.

With materials, the grade of metal used can make a difference to machinability. The bit of steel you have looks like a rather nasty piece of commercial mild steel, which isn't the nicest stuff to macine to a finish. A grade that machines much more nicely is 'free-cutting' mild steel (often called En1A), or the even more free-cutting leaded free-cutting, En1APb. For brass, CZ121 is the usual free-cutting grade (sometimes called 'screw brass'). One good source of small quantities is Folkestone Engineering Supplies, another is The College Engineering Supply - I've used both at various times, and can recommend them.

 

[martinka]

Lovely looking lathe and it cleaned up nicely. I'm jealous. Good job with the makeshift handle too.

Martin.

 

[AndyT]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. Time for some shopping!


On reflection, I think that bit of steel might have been salvaged from the garden railing that was hidden by the hedge - could it possibly have been as old as the house and be a bit of Victorian wrought iron?


I shall keep at it and report back.

 

[chipmunk]

Hi Andy.
I had another thought overnight.
Please take a look at some of this chap's videos if you get time - you won't regret it...

http://www.youtube.com/user/mrpete222/videos

He's an old Illinois school teacher and machinist and has a very good dry SoH - they're entertaining in their own right.
He has over 100 videos of machine shop tips with many on running powered metalworking lathes but most of that will apply to your B&N.

+1 for Cheshirechappy's comments on freecutting EN1A MS.
Axminster sell it too although not cheap...
http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-3-x-330mm-en1a-steel-bars-prod844706/
and also Chronos for most materials in small quantities...
http://chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Metals___Raw_Materials.html

Enjoy!
Jon

 

[AndyT]

Thanks Jon,

That's a good few hours of viewing lined up and I do like his style I of delivery. A bit like being taught by Johnny Cash!


Some proper bits of metal will soon be on their way.

 

[rxh]

Ordinary HSS bits work will work OK and the shorter projection should reduce chatter and produce a better finish. I have a "screw apart" spacer to adjust the height of my bit but you could use disc shaped shims as packing to get the same effect.

I also have a different tool holder that will accept square section bits or a piece of round bar that can be used a rest for freehand turning, which is good for making knobs or similar rounded items. HSS woodturning scrapers or similar tools can be used for this. I have tried this with brass and mild steel. Files can be used for finishing off using a stroking motion (not kept still).

Well done with the restoration and the temporary handle

 

[AndyT]

Thanks RXH that's useful info. I'll see how I get on with the HSS in my holder. If swapping tips is a nuisance I can see how a toolholder like your second one could make a lot of sense. It would make it easier to use a proper parting tool too.

 

[AndyT]

I've found some time to play with my new toy so here is a quick update.

I've bought some proper free cutting mild steel, some bits of HSS and some suds. I've been reading a selection of new and old books and watching Youtube videos. I've even learned how to use a dial gauge to set up a four jaw chuck (and I'm feeling pleased at having held onto an old dial gauge for the last ten years or more.) It's time to make something useful.

Here I am successfully cutting with one of the old original tools, freshly ground:

I could only take light cuts but at least the metal is turning up in curls, not just ripping out in chunks. This steel is so much nicer than the old scrap I was playing with before.

I then needed to set up my freshly ground threading tool to centre height. I'm using the method of pinching something thin against the workpiece to see if it stands vertical - in this case showing one of the many uses for an old credit card. Tool height adjustment is pretty limited - I can pull the HSS out a bit (it sits at an angle in the toolholder) or else I can use shims. Good job I'm not in a hurry.

Here is a shot of the right change wheels in place to do give 24 TPI:

and a few dry runs later, I can cut a thread. It works!

I did this very carefully, in several cuts. As Roy demonstrates in his video, it's easy to keep the half nut engaged and just treadle backwards to get to the start again - and this is only a very small screw. Here it is with the cutting finished - a 7/32" US standard thread, about 5/8" long.

I don't have a cut-off tool so I just sawed this off with a hacksaw, in the lathe. That's not something I would attempt on a powered lathe - but with this one it's really easy to rotate the work dead slow.

Then it's over to the bench to cut a slot with my vintage "4S" tool in its "Slotting" mode:

and here is the result, in place, being useful, holding the front of my little scroll chuck onto the back. Can you tell which one it is and guess what I am going to make next? ;-)

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Nice work, Andy! Most people fight shy of screwcutting when they're new to lathework, so all credit for having a go.

I noticed a diestock set up with a die in one of the photographs. Especially with Whitworth form threads having rounded crests and roots to the thread, finishing with a die is a good move. You can adjust the die to give a nice fit of thread in hole, too. Another tip when dealing with Whit form threads is to turn the blank to a bit less than 'proper' OD, and lose the crest rounding. That way, you can screwcut to a finish; the slight loss in OD doesn't affect the strength of the threaded joint in any way, and neither does the pointed rather than rounded root..

A tip when making both male and female threads is to drill and tap the holes first, then take a stub of steel about three times the diameter of the screw, and about twice the diameter of thread in length. Chuck in the three-jaw, face, drill and tap. You can use this home-made gauge as a guide when screwcutting the male threads - when it'll just screw on nicely, you're done; with the added advantage that it'll be nicely sized to fit YOUR tap.

The 'complete reversal' method of screwcutting is a good one for short lengths of thread, and is even better on a treadle lathe than a power one, because you can reverse as quick as you can treadle. You can also slow the treadling down as you near the end of a cut, making the job a bit less fraught than with a power lathe. (Screwcutting to a shoulder with a largish job in a big powered lathe needs a lot of concentration, and some nerve - been there, done that!) Don't be afraid to get the last bit by pulling the belt by hand, either. That's the sort of control you just don't have under power.

 

[rxh]

You are in business now Andy! =D>

Valuable tips from CC – just in time to benefit me as I have been doing a bit of threading too. I have been making an adaptor to connect a modern 4-jaw scroll chuck to this old Arundel woodturning lathe which seems to have an odd thread size: a bit less than 7/8” but 14 TPI. 7/8” UNF is the nearest standard thread that I could find but it is not an exact match. Anyway, with careful work I have made a female thread to fit it nicely and I am in the process of making a 1”, 8 TPI male thread to fit the chuck. As RichardT and CC have pointed out, a treadle looks like a considerable advantage when threading. Since I have no treadle and because I am afraid of suffering a “train crash” by using the motor, I have made these short threads against a blind hole or shoulder by turning the chuck by hand. This was a bit laborious but worked OK. I used Screwfix cutting, tapping and drilling fluid as a lubricant.

So 19th century technology still has its uses…..

 

[AndyT]

Thanks again for the kind and helpful comments. I have now made a set of three screws for the little chuck, which is satisfying. I know I could possibly have tracked down some 7/32 24 TPI American standard screws - but not easily, and if I had, I would not have learned anything. It was quite a small scale job to start on, but it will give me the confidence to try more - RXH, your special lathe part is just the sort of odd job I shall be looking out for. I already did have respect for machinists but it's not until you start to explore the foothills that you realise how high up the peaks are!

It's certainly true that foot/hand power is a less stressful way to start - on one of the screws, I managed to let part of the carriage bump into one of the protruding chuck jaws. It was at the end of the thread anyway, so I was going slowly, and there was no damage - instead, the belt just slipped a bit on the pulley, leaving me to work out why. With a powered lathe I expect there would have been some expensive damage.

CC, you are very observant - the die was a 3/16" one I was playing with, having accidentally taken a few cuts too many and made a screw too small - I expect it will come in handy some time for something else. I've sent off for a bigger selection of taps and dies so will be able to experiment with lathe cutting followed by final shaping. I also have a few thread chasers which came with the lathe, though not a 24 TPI one. It will be interesting to have a go with those.

From Oxfam, I've bought myself a three volume set of The Complete Metalworker, edited by Bernard Jones and published in the 1920s, which suggests thread chasers as a good technique on small lathes like mine. I need to find a sensible compromise between using suitable methods for the lathe I have and taking advantage of newer tools and materials from the last hundred years or so. Lots of fun ahead, though I have a few woodworking projects I need to get round to!

 

[dickm]

You are in business now Andy! =D>

Valuable tips from CC – just in time to benefit me as I have been doing a bit of threading too. I have been making an adaptor to connect a modern 4-jaw scroll chuck to this old Arundel woodturning lathe which seems to have an odd thread size: a bit less than 7/8” but 14 TPI. 7/8” UNF is the nearest standard thread that I could find but it is not an exact match. Anyway, with careful work I have made a female thread to fit it nicely and I am in the process of making a 1”, 8 TPI male thread to fit the chuck. As RichardT and CC have pointed out, a treadle looks like a considerable advantage when threading. Since I have no treadle and because I am afraid of suffering a “train crash” by using the motor, I have made these short threads against a blind hole or shoulder by turning the chuck by hand. This was a bit laborious but worked OK. I used Screwfix cutting, tapping and drilling fluid as a lubricant.

So 19th century technology still has its uses…..

Be interesting to know how this goes - when making this sort of adaptor, the biggest problem is getting the two registers exactly coaxial and parallel so you don't get severe run-out on the male portion - DAMHIKT . Even rechucking and carefully clocking in a 4-jaw chuck isn't completely reliable, so using a 3-jaw as in the pic could be even worse. Ideally, it needs a dummy mandrel between centres with the Arundel thread on it to hold the female threaded adaptor while cutting the male thread to be sure all is true.
But good luck!

 

[bugbear]

. As RichardT and CC have pointed out, a treadle looks like a considerable advantage when threading. Since I have no treadle and because I am afraid of suffering a “train crash” by using the motor, I have made these short threads against a blind hole or shoulder by turning the chuck by hand. This was a bit laborious but worked OK.

One of the standard amateur lathe attachment (since amatuers push their kit into places it was never meant to go...) is a mandrel handle.

http://home.comcast.net/~glyford/lathe/mandrel.htm

BugBear

 

[rxh]

Dick
Yes, the possibility the errors might stack up too much is a concern. However I have checked the adaptor in place on the Arundel with a dial gauge and it is running reasonably concentric but of course the real test will be how the chuck runs when fitted …..

BB
Thanks for the handle tip. It looks like a good idea – I’ll start looking through my junk boxes for suitable parts to make one from.

Andy,
As I've spent rather a lot of time on metalwork this year I also thought I should get back to some woodwork so I have made a start on making a mandolin, which will be a new adventure for me. Incidentally, before I got a woodturning lathe I did some woodturning using the Barnes, including making two start barley twists with a small router strapped to the carriage and the gear train set to deliver the required pitch. This Heath Robinson type idea worked quite well although the twists did need some finishing by hand.