It's an awfully difficult problem, but there are some stand-out failures at dealing with it and we and the US are forefront in that. That said, there are many less transparent nations who just cover stuff over. Among the transparent, we've done poorly. So far. We might start do better if vaccine rollout is handled well.
How would you rate the UK's handling of this pandemic?
- Thread starter Spectric
- Start date
Help Support UKworkshop.co.uk:
- Status
Can't disagree with that.
Both sides are off here, the "it's aerosoloized and wash your hands all the time " side, but far worse is the "masks don't work, that's the science" (no, it's not) side.
Washing hands for covid is a lot like collecting scrap metal for WWII in the US (the fed gov had people collect scrap to make them feel like they were involved, and then they threw it away because there's no shortage of raw material for aluminum and steel here).
I suspect syphoning off of public funds for politicians mates has always happened, but the simple scale of it now seems to be beyond anything ever seen in modern western societies prior.
It's as if nooone is even trying that hard to cover the corruption. Lying seems accepted now also.
Trump has, i hope, been a wake-up call, and his removal might hopefully start to reverse this wave of populism that the world is seeing currently, but will it be enough?
Historically, vast wealth distribution divides have precipitated civil unrest, and things have been stretching further and further since 2008 - one side getting QE propping up the asset market and bolstering the asset rich, and the asset poor seeing austerity and real wage decline.
Covid and its economic fall out is unlikely to "level up" society without the populous getting a little "smashey smashey" - will they / wont they?
Who knows. But, again, historically, this is basically the tinder bed on which the fire is lit.
Lons
Established Member
TheUnicorn
Established Member
A masterpiece of arrogance and stupidity. "Bizarre autarkic rhetoric" indeed! Guess who he had in mind as the "supercharged champion"
better version here
I never said it was unbiased, just pointing out that Cygnus was not designed for C19, it was designed for flu, so saying we didn't learn the lessons is a false premise.
Hindsight of course is a wonderful thing but in reality I doubt in this country there would have been a fundamental difference in the actions taken by any party in power as at the end of the day, the civil service are still the same, the scientists are the same and as is the NHS. Of course, advisors are different and speech writers too (although there are plenty who have written for both major parties). What is different of course are the core targets for the parties which have led to the issue with timings of actions - Boris et al will have tried to keep economy going, enable people to work and have a decent freedom of actions to an extent.
Labour would prob have acted sooner relying on a more constrained fiscal policy stopping businesses and work quicker but I’m unclear as to how they would have helped education of the needy and state sector schools by shutting schools earlier. Overall, Labour would have relied on massive tax changes eventually paying for their actions whereas the Conservatives would be trying to avoid that by having a continuing economy (we’ll still need the tax changes anyway!).
Loads of mistakes certainly made but the main people to blame for the spread and impact are those who have failed to take precautions and put others at risk. Bloke in queue behind me in the other day moaning to someone else about Boris and just about everything else yet standing there with no mask, getting close than 2m (marked on floors) to the poor bloke he ended up moaning to (who was masked) and saying it (C19) is all rubbish. The girl serving me had lost a member of her family to Covid, Boris (or any leader) can’t be blamed for this type of action. Too many have ignored guidance (a lot of which should have been rules and not guidance)
Labour would prob have acted sooner relying on a more constrained fiscal policy stopping businesses and work quicker but I’m unclear as to how they would have helped education of the needy and state sector schools by shutting schools earlier. Overall, Labour would have relied on massive tax changes eventually paying for their actions whereas the Conservatives would be trying to avoid that by having a continuing economy (we’ll still need the tax changes anyway!).
Loads of mistakes certainly made but the main people to blame for the spread and impact are those who have failed to take precautions and put others at risk. Bloke in queue behind me in the other day moaning to someone else about Boris and just about everything else yet standing there with no mask, getting close than 2m (marked on floors) to the poor bloke he ended up moaning to (who was masked) and saying it (C19) is all rubbish. The girl serving me had lost a member of her family to Covid, Boris (or any leader) can’t be blamed for this type of action. Too many have ignored guidance (a lot of which should have been rules and not guidance)
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Amongst other things Labour would have brought in broadband for all. Heavily derided at the time but now top of the agenda for education and public service information.
Besides that there's really no doubt that Johnson has drastically failed . Easy to blame blokes in queues but the buck stops at the top.
softtop
Established Member
If anyone is interested in a lengthy analysis of what was and wasn't available when, and decisions made versus information available it is here: A timeline of the UK government’s response to the Coronavirus crisis
No doubt that would help education but what about the laptops for all those families who don't have or can't afford one? What about the schools who don't have the means to fully support and take to remote learning (let alone the teachers and/or the capability and willingness of kids to learn that way)?
If discussing "what would Labour have done differently" I think the aim might be more about discussing the handling of the pandemic rather than what they would have done had they been in power and had many years to roll out the broadband and find the billions it would cost. I'm all in favour of it but it wouldn't have happened to "manage the pandemic".
Again, I don't completely disagree with you but the bloke in the queue would be doing it even if the person at the top said "shut down earlier, stay at home, educate your kids at home, use the broadband we've given you etc". The virus has spread by contact so those ignoring the 'no' or 'limited' contact and not doing all things in their power to protect OTHERS are massively to blame as well as those at the top
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
It's just a detail but relevant as the tories are now trying to catch up on this very issue.
It's a bit pointless arguing that Labour wouldn't have done it any better as we will never know. But we do know that Labour doesn't suffer from an ideological obsession with privatisation and would have made far more use of existing structures and local authorities, rather than farming £billions of work out to their best friends. Local authorities are particularly suited to things like track and trace and services like vaccinations, as they have all the local contacts. Farming it all out to unknown start-up businesses looked irresponsible, to say the least.
Last edited:
Hindsight is a perfect science! Leave NZ out the whole of Europe is in the ****., just different depths of it. So all the Governments are rubbish? Each country has different Geography (France twice as big but similar population) It does not matter when or what rules you introduce if some of the population ignore them. "Shouldn't have let students go back" - No, students should have followed the rules! How many of the population don't understand what +1 or 6 means.
How many actually stuck to the rules fully on Christmas Day. I have several "responsible" friends who were seeing more than two other households. Parents, Children, Grandchildren
My view is the Government has an impossible task and how many of those taking the moral high ground have ever had to make such massive decisions regarding health and the economy? None (apart from Tony Blaire spouting off - In the words of John Cleese "Don't mention the war!")
Right going to make some shelves
How many actually stuck to the rules fully on Christmas Day. I have several "responsible" friends who were seeing more than two other households. Parents, Children, Grandchildren
My view is the Government has an impossible task and how many of those taking the moral high ground have ever had to make such massive decisions regarding health and the economy? None (apart from Tony Blaire spouting off - In the words of John Cleese "Don't mention the war!")
Right going to make some shelves
I think one of the problems with the virus is that many people cannot accept something they cannot see and will take risk, IE electricity. If it was a big flesh eating alien on the rampage people would not have needed any instruction or advice as there instincts to survive would have kicked in. Also if the virus was more lethal then people may have took more notice, mentioning it in the same sentence as flu was so misleading and gave people the wrong idea. Had it been really lethal then maybe it would not have even got here, killing faster than it could be transmitted.
So what after all this pandemic has become our past? The only way we will learn and prepare for the next pandemic is to have a public enquiry into how this one was handled, who advised who and made the big mistakes that caused so much death. In the world of business someone could well have been guilty of corporate manslaughter but I think governments are exempt otherwise they could never have wars.
So what after all this pandemic has become our past? The only way we will learn and prepare for the next pandemic is to have a public enquiry into how this one was handled, who advised who and made the big mistakes that caused so much death. In the world of business someone could well have been guilty of corporate manslaughter but I think governments are exempt otherwise they could never have wars.
Received an email from Boris
No reply from me to Boris, he's a busy man; doing his best for our Great Country
John
John, | |
I know there is now one question at the very top of your mind – how fast can we get these millions of new vaccines into the arms of the most vulnerable. You have a right to understand exactly how we’re cracking this problem and how we’re going to offer vaccines to everyone in those key groups identified by the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation by 15th February. This includes everyone 70 or over, older care home residents and staff, all frontline NHS and care staff, and those who are clinically extremely vulnerable - amounting to around 15 million people across the UK. Having now delivered nearly 1.5 million vaccinations, more than all of Europe combined, we are throwing everything at this and accelerating our rollout. Our tactics are to firstly use the NHS so that by the end of next week there will be: | |
 Over 1,000 GP led vaccination sites 223 hospital vaccination sites 7 giant vaccination centres 200 first wave community pharmacy sites | |
If all goes well these together should have the capacity to deliver hundreds of thousands of vaccines per day by January 15th. Secondly, we have secured enough supply to vaccinate our key groups by the 15th February deadline. With the army working hand in glove with the NHS and local councils to set up our vaccine network, using battle preparation techniques to help us keep up the pace. And thirdly, thanks to the Oxford / AstraZeneca vaccine, we have begun greatly expanding our care home vaccinations – with the plan to have offered every elderly care home resident a vaccine by the end of this month. This vast acceleration of our vaccination programme will now be aided by the British scientific breakthrough of two new drugs, which reduce the risk of death by nearly a quarter, now being deployed across the NHS to fight the virus. So John, I can assure you we’re doing everything we can to vaccinate as many people as possible across our whole United Kingdom. But in the meantime, I must urge you to: | |
Stay at home. Protect our NHS. Save lives. | |
Yours sincerely, | |
|
John
Billy_wizz
Established Member
Technically the flu virus is considerably worse than covid it's just it's been here for so long that the human race has become adjusted to it when European explorer's took the flu with them they wiped out hole villages of native populations
I think that there have been two main issues with the public following "the rules"
A) The rules have all been hazy and ill defined. I once sought clarity on an issue from a friend in the police force and they were none the wiser.
B) (and this is more significant, in my opinion) - All parties, but *especially* the one in command and making the rules should have lead by example!
There should have been no far fetched eye test excuses. Regardless of if rules were or were not broken then, the damage done to public confidence by such nonsense has, undoubtedly, cost lives.
I don't agree with what the new leader of the labor party has done regarding the anti-Semitism suspensions etc but I can fully understand why he has done it - to set a clear and indisputable example of zero tolerance.
The government setting the rules would, I suspect, have had a different reaction from the general public if they had shown zero tolerance to discrepancies within their own ranks.
Eye test illegality or otherwise, it's perception that counts, and the perception has been that "if they're not following their own rules..."
It should have all been clear cut with no room for confusion.
A) The rules have all been hazy and ill defined. I once sought clarity on an issue from a friend in the police force and they were none the wiser.
B) (and this is more significant, in my opinion) - All parties, but *especially* the one in command and making the rules should have lead by example!
There should have been no far fetched eye test excuses. Regardless of if rules were or were not broken then, the damage done to public confidence by such nonsense has, undoubtedly, cost lives.
I don't agree with what the new leader of the labor party has done regarding the anti-Semitism suspensions etc but I can fully understand why he has done it - to set a clear and indisputable example of zero tolerance.
The government setting the rules would, I suspect, have had a different reaction from the general public if they had shown zero tolerance to discrepancies within their own ranks.
Eye test illegality or otherwise, it's perception that counts, and the perception has been that "if they're not following their own rules..."
It should have all been clear cut with no room for confusion.
Ahh, the something for nothing gimmick.
Woody2Shoes
Impressive Member
I agree with 1): The "rules" have become ridiculously labyrinthine over time, so that even intelligent and highly motivated people have found it difficult to fully understand and apply them. The science is crystal clear, and is dead simple to understand - the virus spreads extremely easily by close contact between one person and another (particularly where there is an elevated chance they will breathe the same air for an extended period) - end of. I do criticise the government for over-complicating the rules because they have "given in" to the vested interests arguing for their part of society to be considered a special case e.g. paying people to eat out (for heavens' sake) also, the number of people flying in/out of the country over the last year beggars belief.
I agree with 2): Boris lost trust when he failed to do the right thing - quickly - with Dominic Cummings.
I think that Boris has consistently delayed important decisions to tighten restrictions - from Feb 2020 onwards to a few days ago - and is culpable for that.
I think that Boris is responsible for not cracking down (and being seen to) on his chums who have not followed the spirit of the rules - why that Scottish MP who went on public transport etc. while knowing she had C19 is still an MP I don't know.
- Status
