How to dry and cut some horse chestnut logs?

[sploo]

A tree surgeon was taking down some (what he told me was horse chestnut) trees near my workplace a few days ago, and I grabbed a couple of logs (image attached).

The shorter log is about 11" diameter and 11" long, and the longer one is 10" diameter and 18" long.

They're both quite wet, and although I'm thinking about getting a larger bandsaw at some point, my current one only has a resaw capacity of about 8".

I don't have a project in mind, but I was wondering if anyone could advise on what's best to do with them - dry for a while then attempt to plank, plank now and try to dry etc.?

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

At the very least split them longitudinally through the pith....paint/pva/wax/seal the end grain and leave to dry in an airy place not in contact with the ground or they will split from the ends, in particular from the pith where water loss is at its greatest in the first few months.

I have some HC and it's a little dull but it turns really nicely and its very stable. Some of mine got spalted and that was lovely.

 

[Alexam]

....... Some of mine got spalted and that was lovely.

Bob, if the logs were stood on the ground, or 'prepared' ground, would they become spalted and if so how long would that take. Just a though about something I don't know about.

Alex

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

the spalting process isn't an exact science and depends on a number of factors, density of wood, presence of the right kind of funghi, temperature, damp etc but my general experience is that if you leave the log barkside down directly on the ground for 3-6 months it will get spalted.

There is a YT somewhere of an American Spalting guru (lady) who does a lecture to some folks which was quite interesting. I think she even bottles and sells the seed funghi for various different types. Sort of designer funghi if you like. Trouble I cant remember who she is for the life of me!!

 

[sdjp]

.if the logs were stood on the ground, or 'prepared' ground, would they become spalted and if so how long would that take.

In generally, spalting is when fungi live off the residual sap in the wood. (That's why spalted wood doesn't disintegrate instantly; when the fungi start to digest the lignin/cellulose that's when the wood gets soft. When this starts, it's generally referred to as 'punky'). Or, perhaps, the 'good' spalting is from the sap, and left too long it will, eventually, rot the wood - I don't think that the fungi have as clear a distinction between the two as we would like.

Trees generally produce anti-fungal compounds; but these decay away after the wood is cut. How long that takes varies, but from http://www.thompson-morgan.com/static-i ... CTIONS.pdf 6 weeks seems a realistic outline.

So, for the first 6 weeks, the wood will have it's own protection. After that, the fungi can start to move in.

Soil will contain various fungi spores; this article http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/a ... umber.aspx suggests using bits of previously spalted wood as the source, which seems sensible. It's suggestion of using plastic to speed it up is interesting.

One thing to note - the dark lines in splaying are the boundaries between different fungi, therefore to get lost of them, you want a wide variety of fungi in there. (I'm not sure exactly how to encourage that - save from a 'use a bit of everything' approach). Also, the fungi tend to enter through the end grain - which, I think means that sawn planks would be better than riven, in this case.

So, if I wanted to spalt some wood, I'd start by cutting the wood into lengths a bit longer than the final desired length. Split or saw in half /planks to remove the pith, rub it all over with wet earth (ideally from a forest, take from some rotting fallen wood), surround with wet shavings/dust from spalted wood, and pack all that in a plastic bag. Then keep an eye on it - there's a chance it'll go so fast to go past spalted into crumbly pulp. One it's looks kind of right, take it out the plastic, and dry it. Probably err on the side of stopping short.

One thing I keep wondering is how much of a difference it makes to spalting between summer felled and winter felled timber - I suspect that the summer felled will go faster, because of more sugar in the wood, and the warmer temperatures - but that's just a guess.

There is a YT somewhere of an American Spalting guru (lady) who does a lecture to some folks which was quite interesting.

Sara Robinson; she leads a research group in wood anatomy. Website is at http://www.northernspalting.com/

 

[sploo]

At the very least split them longitudinally through the pith....paint/pva/wax/seal the end grain and leave to dry in an airy place not in contact with the ground or they will split from the ends, in particular from the pith where water loss is at its greatest in the first few months.

I have some HC and it's a little dull but it turns really nicely and its very stable. Some of mine got spalted and that was lovely.

Bob - dumb question; to me, pith is the white stuff around an orange, so are you talking about just scoring through the bark layer along the length of the log?

Funnily enough, I got a piece of unidentified firewood from a mate, and having sliced and planed it, it's got some really nice spalting.

 

[sdjp]

to me, pith is the white stuff around an orange, so are you talking about just scoring through the bark layer along the length of the log?

No, pith is the soft stuff in the very centre of the tree, surrounded by the most central growth rings. It's so called because in younger trees it really does look like the same stuff as in orange pith - but that's less noticeable in older trees.

So that means you have to split the whole log in half, making sure that the split goes through the very centre.

This is important, because the rings in the tree shrink more tangentially than they do radially [0], which means that if you don't split them, the wood will pull itself apart, into the familiar star pattern of shakes often seen in firewood, which renders it less useful to making things from.

[0] EDIT: Corrected the word order, thanks Richard

 

[sploo]

to me, pith is the white stuff around an orange, so are you talking about just scoring through the bark layer along the length of the log?

No, pith is the soft stuff in the very centre of the tree, surrounded by the most central growth rings. It's so called because in younger trees it really does look like the same stuff as in orange pith - but that's less noticeable in older trees.

So that means you have to split the whole log in half, making sure that the split goes through the very centre.

This is important, because the rings in the tree shrink more radially than they do tangentially, which means that if you don't split them, the wood will pull itself apart, into the familiar star pattern of shakes often seen in firewood, which renders it less useful to making things from.

Got it - thanks. It's too big for the bandsaw, and I don't have an axe. Would it be appropriate to saw it along the length using a bow saw? (i.e. is there any reason why I shouldn't do it that way)

 

[paulm]

You could split it with a couple or three large hardwood wedges and a lump/sledge hammer if you can make the wedges, as the grain looks pretty straight and knot free, or do as you say with the bow saw but that sounds like more hard work

Cheers, Paul

 

[woodfarmer]

It would be easier with a chainsaw. Plus I have found it better to slip it about an inch or so from th epith from each side leaving big "plank" containingthe centre. then 1/4 saw them to remove the pith, or take a chance on it. That way you get two bowl blanks plus a maybe

Although it is better with a rip chain and ordinary one will be fine if it is sharp.

Rather than a bow saw, by hand a rip saw if you have one.

This is what my round of horsechestnut roughed out into.

bowlsaver cored out a second smaller bowl blank.

 

[sploo]

You could split it with a couple or three large hardwood wedges and a lump/sledge hammer if you can make the wedges, as the grain looks pretty straight and knot free, or do as you say with the bow saw but that sounds like more hard work

That's a good idea. I could probably cook something up - thanks!

How would you initially get the wedge into the end of the log (are you suggesting that a hard enough wedge would do the job itself)?

It would be easier with a chainsaw. Plus I have found it better to slip it about an inch or so from th epith from each side leaving big "plank" containingthe centre. then 1/4 saw them to remove the pith, or take a chance on it. That way you get two bowl blanks plus a maybe

Thanks. I'm not a turner so my "bowl blanks" will be "sheets for boxes... or toys... or something..." :wink:

I quite like the idea of trying to quarter saw them. I assume after the initial splitting I should still leave it for a few months before attempting to do the sawing?

 

[paulm]

You could make a starting cut for the wedges with the bow saw, shouldn't need much, say a quarter inch or so on the end, but if the wedges are hard enough then may not need that. The resulting split pieces will of course follow the grain in the log, so straight grained knot free logs best, otherwise you will end up with twisted sections of log, but will still help break down the log to get it on the bandsaw.

Cheers, Paul

 

[Sgian Dubh]

So that means you have to split the whole log in half, making sure that the split goes through the very centre.
This is important, because the rings in the tree shrink more radially than they do tangentially.

I suspect a slip of the tongue in the highlighted statement above because you seem to have inadvertently switched shrinkage factors. Tangential shrinkage (following the roughly circular growth rings) is always greater than radial shrinkage, by factors somewhere between about 1.4 and 2.4, all depending on the species, with the average tangential/radial shrinkage factor for all species being 1.8. Slainte.

 

[sdjp]

This is important, because the rings in the tree shrink more radially than they do tangentially.

I suspect a slip of the tongue in the highlighted statement above because you seem to have inadvertently switched shrinkage factors.

Indeed, my bad! I got the effects right, just a word problem there… I've corrected it for posterity; thanks.

 

[woodfarmer]

You could split it with a couple or three large hardwood wedges and a lump/sledge hammer if you can make the wedges, as the grain looks pretty straight and knot free, or do as you say with the bow saw but that sounds like more hard work

That's a good idea. I could probably cook something up - thanks!

How would you initially get the wedge into the end of the log (are you suggesting that a hard enough wedge would do the job itself)?

It would be easier with a chainsaw. Plus I have found it better to slip it about an inch or so from th epith from each side leaving big "plank" containingthe centre. then 1/4 saw them to remove the pith, or take a chance on it. That way you get two bowl blanks plus a maybe

Thanks. I'm not a turner so my "bowl blanks" will be "sheets for boxes... or toys... or something..." :wink:

I quite like the idea of trying to quarter saw them. I assume after the initial splitting I should still leave it for a few months before attempting to do the sawing?

Having looked at all the "science" about wood splitting, my country yokel approach is like this.
As wood dries it shrinks, but it does not shrink evenly. some woods more so than others.
The wood on th eouter crumference of atrunk will always try to shrink smaller than the circumference so pull apart and split radially from the outside.
The centre of a tree, pith and close will tend to shrink more than the outer wood so pull into the middle. It also is blessed with the disire to have its circumference less than possible so starting more radial splits.
Worse this shrinkage can spread out into the main trunk causing it to split more.
If you cut a chord off one side say an inch or two, the paralell to that cut it across the middle so no pith area is included you lessen its ability to split. do teh same for the other side. The middle plank is now safer on the outside, but still vulnerable to the activities of the pith. If you cut that out the two half planks are likely to survive.
given that you want thin planks from you 11 inch diamter log I would do this.
cut a two inch chord off one side and again the opposite side.
Take a one inch chord 90 degrees off one other side then plank the rest completely, including the pith.
those planks with pith may or may not survive, but the rest should.

 

[sploo]

I'd tried some wedges made of ash, and a fairly small hammer (which was all I'd got to hand). The wedges lost.

I've now gotten hold of a sledgehammer and a pair of cheap metal wedges. I had to hack out a wide enough slot in the ends to get a wedge started, but once in they worked like a charm. I'm amazed how well (and how relatively straight) the logs split. Perhaps people that have been doing this for years actually know something :wink:

I've now got four halves sitting in the garage - so should I try to plank them on the bandsaw before they dry further, or should I leave them before cutting?

I'd probably be looking to get 1/2" finished boards, so I presume I should be rough cutting them to no less than 3/4" thick to allow for movement and then planing?

In terms of air drying, my understanding is approx 1 year per inch of thickness. Also, I've got some beeswax blocks - would they be fine for sealing the ends (melted and dipping the ends of the boards)?

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

you should assume 5-6mm loss due to planing so your 3/4 down to 1/2" is about right. You should plank on the bandsaw and then sticker the resultant planks so the air can circulate around them. Then kept in an airy place out of the rain. The end grain needs to be sealed and molten beeswax is fine. Go 1" up from the end grain into the boards also. The rough rule of thumb is 1" inch per year of thickness PLUS a year. My personal experience with HC for stability is good when used for turning blanks. In point of fact, its the most stable wood I've ever turned and really seemed to defy the odds with movement of bowls. However, I would still treat it as any other wood and dry in the normal way as above. Are you sure you only want 1/2" stock? That's pretty thin. Box making???

 

[sploo]

Thanks Bob. Yeah - my "background" has been years of MDF (mostly loudspeakers) so I'm a relative novice with "tree" wood.

I've built a few small jewellery type boxes (actually a few years ago, but long before I had a thickness planer).

I've used 2 1/2" square stock for a couple of small projects, but I don't really have the room in the house to build furniture (even if I had the time) and so smaller items is likely what I'll use it for.

Perhaps I'll cut one at 3/4" and some of the other into thicker chunks, but 3" means 4 years of waiting :shock:

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

but 3" means 4 years of waiting :shock:

Aye....that does rather suck doesn't it

 

[sploo]

Well, I made a start at cutting one of the halved logs (into two quarters). My bandsaw struggled. It did it, but it took so long that I'm not sure I'd want to try doing the other three (let alone trying to plank them) with the current set up.

I've got an old Record Power BS300, which has otherwise been a good saw. It's currently fitted with a new Record Power 3/4" 3 tpi blade; though that's a bit of a sore point, as it was listed as compatible with the machine... and prompt snapped my tensioning rod when I tried to set it up . Speaking to Record afterwards I was told that they probably wouldn't recommend it for that machine #-o (then why list it for that model guys?)

Because I'd got some reasonable tension on the blade (before the rod snapped), and because I need the machine running, I haven't yet stripped it down to fit the replacement part, but if/when I get time to do that I presume I should look into Tuffsaws' SuperTuff Sabrecut blades?

On the back-burner (probably not this year, the rate things are going) I'd planned to have a go at building Matthias Wandel's 16" bandsaw (though maybe scaled up as an experiment). I've got a nice 3hp induction motor sitting the garage, and I'm certainly wishing I had that kind of power right now.