How much do you charge?

[BradNaylor]

For what it's worth Simon I would think twice about what you write on these forums, you don't know who reads them 8-[ .

I think your Nan will be made up with her coffee table and so she should be, it's a nice piece of furniture. Please don't get cynical about what your worth and how much you could earn, it's not worth the heartache. If your happy to make things for family and friends, carry on.

There has just been a post about what you should earn and what the reality is. It doesn't make good reading. People aren't prepared to pay for real wood and quality, they're just used to MDF. No disrespect to Dan "who is turning it into gold in a northern town".

Phil

No offence taken, Phil.

My tagline about turning MDF into gold is actually an ironic reference to the fact that most professional cabinetmakers these days are forced down the road of making fairly basic custom fitted furniture in order to make a living.

Hobby woodworkers often get upset at the 'low' prices that their beautifully crafted masterpieces would achieve on the open market.

Lets take Simons' coffee table.

It's all well and good advising him that he should be charging £50 per hour but if the table took him 20 hours to make that's a grand! Plus the cost of the wood.

It's a nice table but with the best will in the world nobody's going to pay more than a few hundred pounds for what is a pretty straightforward coffee table.

The analogy with a plumber is not a good one. When you employ a plumber you are buying his services for the number of hours or days that it takes him to complete the job.

The purchaser of a piece of bespoke furniture is buying a piece of furniture. He couldn't give a flying fig how long it takes to make!

Everyone who starts making furniture for a living learns a few things very quickly - or goes bust.

Certain types of job pay far better than others.

A solid wood coffee table like Simon's is expensive in materials, and time consuming to make. When competed, it is worth say £300.

A simple cupboard to hide someone's gas meter in their hallway can be knocked up in a morning out of half a sheet of MDF and a coat of primer. When completed, it is worth say £300!

This is the reason why most professionals don't make many coffee tables!

It's not all MDF, however. This morning I've got to do a quote for a solid mahogany reproduction glazed corner unit. The price comes out at £2800 for a single freestanding piece of furniture. It'll be interesting to see if I get the job.

The thing is however, that this kind of work doesn't come along too often.

Cheers
Dan

 

[andycorleone]

I think all is in the design that you create and the quantities that you make

I will never waste real oak in made something like this:

but maybe is something like this

and if you are going to do it for business I think you are going to expend less time if you made 2 or 3 of the same :wink:

People with taste (very few BTW) don't like to buy common furniture that you can buy on Ikea they love uniques pieces. other way to make money is made specific furnitues for specific places like the unit Dan Made:

 

[ike]

£15 per hr. If it was a full-time business operation, add on for additional overheads.

 

[Pete Howlett]

I stopped making furniture because I couldn't feed my family and did the same full time making these:

And you are all right - the job is what it's worth when it comes to furniture making and the cabinet fitting and gas meter boxes go to subsidize the work you like to do. Now I have a day job and in my own time make ukulele. However I still charge the market price because my work is Internationally known and of the highest standard...

And if I told you the wood for the body of the above ukulele costs £680 a cubic foot you wouldn't believe me would you?

 

[filsgreen]

I have to know Pete, how much do you sell your Ukelele's for? Have you heard this guy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9mEKMz2Pvo

He is phenomenal :shock:

Phil

 

[Mr T]

Hi

Lets do some maths:

How much do you want to earn per annum say £15000

What are your overheads, not much if you are working
in your garage, but don't forget , phone, postage,
advertising, transport, insurance etc, lets be generous £5000

Total £20000

How many hours are you going to work 40 per week?
But that does not allow for non productive time,
seeing customers, admin, sweeping the workshop
and all the other bits and pieces that stop you
being productive, lets say 30 hrs pw less 4weeks off
30 x 48 1440

Total divided by hours gives hourly rate £13.88


That doesn't seem much, my arithmetic must be wrong! But the principle is there just plug in your own figures. Some would say you should add a percentage for profit.

The basic problem with making bespoke furniture is finding people wealthy enough to pay for it. You then need to make stuff that is distinctive enough for people not to be able to say "I could get one of those at Ikea for £150"!

Chris

 

[filsgreen]

I have to know Pete, how much do you sell your Ukelele's for? Have you heard this guy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9mEKMz2Pvo

He is phenomenal :shock:

Phil

Don't bother Pete, took a ganders at your website Pretty impressive.

Phil

Sorry for hijacking your thread Simon

 

[chippy1970]

I'm just holding on, especially when the construction industry is in trouble at the moment.
quote]

In trouble what trouble ?

We have never been so busy I know a lot of the huge builders like Barratts etc are closing big sites but everyone I know is still very busy.

I sub-contract for builders and we do all the carpentry for sites where there may only be a few luxury houses anything up to £4m each and all their sites are running as usual.

As regards charging £10 per hour that is too low no matter what part of the country you are in.

 

[Karl]

Well, my 2pence for what it's worth.

You need to work out how much income you need, and work backwards from there to arrive at a daily rate. I wouldn't bother trying to price jobs by the hour - half day as a minimum.

And where the job isn't for F&F, I try to charge as much as I think I can. If the customer is happy to pay it, who am I to argue ! Extra "profit" made on these jobs helps offset any overruns you may have on other jobs.

Cheers

Karl

 

[shim20]

anyone know what the average wage should be for some one with with level 2 and 3 in furniture making and got about 4 years experience. im thinking more that £6 an hour lol.

 

[Pete Howlett]

It's nothing to do with level 2 or 3 or any level. The work is what it is and what you can get for it. Don't be a sucker and work for the 'love of it' or for 'beer money'. You might as well go out and clean windows at £45 an hour, work half the week doing that and the rest indulging your masochistic tendencies ie working for nowt!

You have been given copious amounts of advice and it doesn't matter what we say you seem determined to work for a pittance. Go ahead... you must be young, that's all I can say!

Enough ukuleists play my instruments for me to be satisfied with what I am doing. I'm just glad I don't have to rely on it for a living - now when I worked in America that was a very different kettle of fish!

 

[BradNaylor]

Well, my 2pence for what it's worth.

You need to work out how much income you need, and work backwards from there to arrive at a daily rate. I wouldn't bother trying to price jobs by the hour - half day as a minimum.

And where the job isn't for F&F, I try to charge as much as I think I can. If the customer is happy to pay it, who am I to argue ! Extra "profit" made on these jobs helps offset any overruns you may have on other jobs.

Cheers

Karl

Good advice.

Woodworking jobs tend to take days rather than hours and it is better to estimate how many days it will take rather than hours. Round up to the nearest full day.

Standard rates for most self-employed tradesmen are currently between £120 and £200 per day. Remember that most tradesmen do not have the overheads of a workshop to cover, so I would suggest that £200 per day is the minimum that you should be prepared to settle for.

Work for much less than this and you will go nowhere fast, as well as eroding the rates commanded by fellow professionals.

Put yourself about too much at low rates and you might even receive a 'visit'! :shock:

Cheers
Dan

 

[Anonymous]

So Philly has twice the skill as you :roll: :lol:

What a very strange thing to write.

I said that Philly works twice as fast as me. I said nothing about skill.

In some areas my skills are much better than Phil's, but in others his skills are much better than mine.

However, he is much more speedy than I when making things.

Clear now?

 

[dennis]

The thing is it is not just about hourly or daily rates, but also the work rate. As if one person turns out projects twice as fast at the same hourly rate, the slower person is then charging double the price.

Dennis

 

[Tusses]

So Philly has twice the skill as you :roll: :lol:

What a very strange thing to write.

I said that Philly works twice as fast as me. I said nothing about skill.

In some areas my skills are much better than Phil's, but in others his skills are much better than mine.

However, he is much more speedy than I when making things.

Clear now?

I think it was meant tongue in cheek !

 

[p111dom]

The thing is it is not just about hourly or daily rates, but also the work rate. As if one person turns out projects twice as fast at the same hourly rate, the slower person is then charging double the price.

Dennis

That was my point exactly. At the end of the day I think a daily rate is too vague to base financial figures on. I'm reluctant to make things for other people at work for a variety of reasons but it they are getting quotes for tradesmen they always ask me what I think would be a reasonable price. I colleague was getting a hardwood floor laid in his hallway which meant that 10 or so doors needed around 10mm trimming off the bottom. He was quoted £45 per door as a flat fee so £450 which I thought was rediculous. I did exactly the same as this some years ago but only had to do 7 doors. It was door off, into the garrage, clamp on straight edge and run the router along the bottom edge. A clean cut, no finishing required and the door straight back on to its origional hinges. It took me about 30 mins per door so about 4 and a half hours including tea breaks. I did offer in the end but they guy had already said yes. The tradesman turned up with a scribe and a hand plane which while admirable and traditional was desperatley slow. Took just less than 2 days so the price seems more realistic but the fact of the matter is that the job could have been done in less than a day to the same standard. If it took me 6 hours I would have earner £75 per hour at his rate but as it took him more like 16 so he made £28 per hour. A tradesman with the right tools could have charged £35 per hour, finished in 8 hours tops, made £280 and moved on to the next job. Working smart is better for everyone. Investment in the buisness is the key IMO.

 

[TheTiddles]

charging per hour and knowing how much you are able to earn is interesting. I'm in a 'normal' salaried job and I'm supposed to be working 37.5 hours per week, in May I did 380 hours, I don't know what that works out to be and I don't want to know! From time to time you have to do what it takes to get by, sometimes you make money othertimes you only seem to spend.

As for people 'devalueing' workmanship by charging less than others consider to be representative... colluding to keep prices high is perhaps something you should not admit to on a public forum!

Aidan

 

[Karl]

The thing is it is not just about hourly or daily rates, but also the work rate. As if one person turns out projects twice as fast at the same hourly rate, the slower person is then charging double the price.

Dennis

That was my point exactly. At the end of the day I think a daily rate is too vague to base financial figures on. I'm reluctant to make things for other people at work for a variety of reasons but it they are getting quotes for tradesmen they always ask me what I think would be a reasonable price. I colleague was getting a hardwood floor laid in his hallway which meant that 10 or so doors needed around 10mm trimming off the bottom. He was quoted £45 per door as a flat fee so £450 which I thought was rediculous. I did exactly the same as this some years ago but only had to do 7 doors. It was door off, into the garrage, clamp on straight edge and run the router along the bottom edge. A clean cut, no finishing required and the door straight back on to its origional hinges. It took me about 30 mins per door so about 4 and a half hours including tea breaks. I did offer in the end but they guy had already said yes. The tradesman turned up with a scribe and a hand plane which while admirable and traditional was desperatley slow. Took just less than 2 days so the price seems more realistic but the fact of the matter is that the job could have been done in less than a day to the same standard. If it took me 6 hours I would have earner £75 per hour at his rate but as it took him more like 16 so he made £28 per hour. A tradesman with the right tools could have charged £35 per hour, finished in 8 hours tops, made £280 and moved on to the next job. Working smart is better for everyone. Investment in the buisness is the key IMO.

Dom

Interesting example about the doors. I would have quoted half a day (£75). The job would take 15 mins per door (straight edge and circular saw, block plane to clean up edges). Total time on job, including setting up and clearing up, 3 hours.

Quoting £45 per door then using a hand plane to do the work is just ridiculous.

Cheers

Karl