I agree we have lost a lot of manufacturing but there is still plenty of opportunities. The car industry has been mentioned but often forgotten is that we are one of the most successful pharmaceutical manufacturers who employ a whole range of engineering disciplines. If you are considering a career in engineering contact the Institutes who provide great career packs for young people and where to seek employment. Thanks for the discussions on this post it has been interesting. We place far too much pressure on people going to a University to get a degree often in subjects that have no bearing for the skills industry requires. Its a shame that the do gooders pushed Universities and we lost the great Polytechnics and Technical Colleges that we had. These provided hands on skills with sound qualifications that were as good as a degree.
How do we get kids to be engineers
- Thread starter bracspin
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Phil Pascoe
Established Member
An friend was working about 50 years ago was working in a factory that produced synthetic yarn. One day his newly employed, degree "qualified" line manager told him to load a machine with a particular material and he replied that not only would it not work, it would destroy the machine. The guy insisted it wouldn't, so my friend asked for the instruction in writing. He got it, and duly destroyed the machine. he was hauled across the coals and produced the written instruction, getting none of the blame. Some while afterwards he inquired what the bloke's degree was in - it was eclesiastical history.
My father followed the trend in the late '60s to employ people with degrees as site managers : within six months they were all gone - replaced by chippies and masons.
My father followed the trend in the late '60s to employ people with degrees as site managers : within six months they were all gone - replaced by chippies and masons.
thick_mike
Wood Shortener
finneyb":3eestaae said:
Unfortunately the teachers are all pushed to the limit delivering the curriculum. All of the nice to have and enriching activities are squeezed out of our schools by overbearing assessment and data. I would love to run a science and engineering club at my school, but I am exhausted just doing the basics. It's a very sad state of affairs.
Tasky
Established Member
All terms capitalised are so on purpose, to distinguish from those who use the terms incorrectly.
I work in Civil Engineering, alongside Chartered and Incorporated Engineers. Technically I am a Technician, based on the work I do and what I am trained to do. However, we have Generic Role Profiling and as such, our Engineers have been reclassified as Technical Advisors, while I am now an Analyst. Through this they were actually able to lower our pay... and already, not only is Civils among the lowest paid of the Engineering disciplines, but in the UK we are paid less than 70% of the rest of the world doing the same role. If there were any viable vacancies for a Technician in Germany, New Zealand or something, I'd be on a good £16k more!!
Simple as.
We still have apprenticeships as well as graduate programmes... but all the Engineers end up as Project Managers, because it pays much better and the Engineering degree training is vastly superior to actual PM degrees!!
I work in Civil Engineering, alongside Chartered and Incorporated Engineers. Technically I am a Technician, based on the work I do and what I am trained to do. However, we have Generic Role Profiling and as such, our Engineers have been reclassified as Technical Advisors, while I am now an Analyst. Through this they were actually able to lower our pay... and already, not only is Civils among the lowest paid of the Engineering disciplines, but in the UK we are paid less than 70% of the rest of the world doing the same role. If there were any viable vacancies for a Technician in Germany, New Zealand or something, I'd be on a good £16k more!!
Pay them properly.bracspin":24reu693 said:
Simple as.
We still have apprenticeships as well as graduate programmes... but all the Engineers end up as Project Managers, because it pays much better and the Engineering degree training is vastly superior to actual PM degrees!!
HappyHacker
Established Member
Unfortunately the term engineer has become totally misused in the UK to the point where it is an "engineer" who changes the oil in your car. Coupled with a school system where the success of the individual and the school is judged on the pass rate and grades at whatever the current exams are called. So the schools teach to the exam, one of my daughters ex boyfriends was doing A level english literature and boasted that he had not read a book since he was 12. Meanwhile as our children grades improve year on year we (the UK) keep going down on the international tables of academic attainment.
When I joined secondary school the woodworking lessons from the first year included the use of chisels, saws, hammers, when a couple of years later we started metalwork we used lathes, drills, forges. Virtually all of which would be too risky for todays children. When I went to grammar school to do A levels they had no wood or metal working facilities, they learnt french and latin instead.
The son of a friend wanted to get an engineering apprenticeship, he was accepted by an aerospace factory but he would not do HND/C as part of the apprenticeship, they would only teach the apprentices who they needed to do the job. He got a mechanical engineering apprenticeship in a oil refinery where he will get qualifications.
A old school friend now retired who was a civil engineer, with no formal qualifications but years of experience designing and building roads said he was being offered contracts at ridiculously high rates as they could not get people with trained and with experience to do the work.
I do worry about the future of the UK when our politicians keep on saying that we will be a knowledge economy when so many other countries are outstripping our levels of knowledge.
Finally why should anyone aspire to be an engineer in the UK and earn a relatively low wage with poor career progression when they can become bankers and rake it in.
When I joined secondary school the woodworking lessons from the first year included the use of chisels, saws, hammers, when a couple of years later we started metalwork we used lathes, drills, forges. Virtually all of which would be too risky for todays children. When I went to grammar school to do A levels they had no wood or metal working facilities, they learnt french and latin instead.
The son of a friend wanted to get an engineering apprenticeship, he was accepted by an aerospace factory but he would not do HND/C as part of the apprenticeship, they would only teach the apprentices who they needed to do the job. He got a mechanical engineering apprenticeship in a oil refinery where he will get qualifications.
A old school friend now retired who was a civil engineer, with no formal qualifications but years of experience designing and building roads said he was being offered contracts at ridiculously high rates as they could not get people with trained and with experience to do the work.
I do worry about the future of the UK when our politicians keep on saying that we will be a knowledge economy when so many other countries are outstripping our levels of knowledge.
Finally why should anyone aspire to be an engineer in the UK and earn a relatively low wage with poor career progression when they can become bankers and rake it in.
whiskywill
Established Member
Tasky":3avd6zgg said:
Can you actually do a degree in Project Management? I am both. An engineer by qualification, a project manager by experience?
HappyHacker
Established Member
whiskywill":3pqk0b2m said:
Yes you can, I have met a few of them with varying degrees of competence from reasonable to good. From what I was told it was a general business degree with a high emphasis on project management and risk management. Some people argue that project management is all about risk management. While I agree that every activity a project manager performs is about some element of risk management I believe PMs need skills in addition to risk management to successfully perform the role.
Rhyolith
Established Member
As someone who has literally just come through the education system and who originally wanted to be an engineer, thought I could add a bit to the original question of this thread.
I first got interested in engineering in high school, this was through several clubs themed around scrap heap challenge, robot wars, those kind of things. I loved those and learned a lot. Certainly was better than the borderline useless tech lessons.
People have said D&T in schools is severly limited by the rules banning students form using any powertools (and many other things you need to actaully do anything), this is so true. It means you always having to wait for a teacher to progress, which aside from making project progression tediosuly slow also prevents you learning to work independently. Don't avoid dangerous things, learn to do dangerous things safely. :roll:
The other thing that de-railed my potential engineering career was the required high grades in maths, which I simply couldn't get. Suppose you could say that means I was never cut out to be an engineer, which is what I beleived for a long time.
I tried to do partical subjects and find ways to learn trades like woodworking, car maintains, anything like that through GCSEs and A-levels. But in short the in school D&T remained borderline useless right thorugh till the end of my time at school... this despite being absurbly well funded. They had proper engineering laths, mills, bandsaws, laser cutters, the works! Of course I still was not aloud to use 90% of it
With no profeessionally practical people in the family or as friends, I had not contacts in trades to learn outside school. Though I did ask a few people in local garages to teach me, they said they couldn't beceasue of Health, saftely and insurance issues :?
So I had no practical skills to speak of by the age of 17.
Things only changed when my parents offered to pay for me to go here for a year: http://www.ibtc.co.uk which was lifechanging, if not extremly difficult due to a complete loss of faith in myself by this point (repeatly trying and failing to achieve what I wanted).
I have found that volunteering is the way to go if you want to learn practical skills, thought this has been alot easier with the base to build on that IBTC course provided. I have since been a conservation volunteer for 5 years at too many places to list here.
I now volunteer for the Norfolk wildlife trust and Mid-Norfolk railway. And get part time paid work with a charity wood workshop (making crates and so on for the charity to sell).
All this practical volunteering has finally rebuilt all the confidence lost in the education system (aka school) and I feel like my practical knowledge and capabilities are now decidedly above average.
In short I don't think lack of desire to become engineers is the problem, least not on my generation (born in early 1990s). Its lack of meaningful opportunity and guidence with the education system for anyone other than academics.
So sorry for the Autobiography! But I thought it was relevant.
I first got interested in engineering in high school, this was through several clubs themed around scrap heap challenge, robot wars, those kind of things. I loved those and learned a lot. Certainly was better than the borderline useless tech lessons.
People have said D&T in schools is severly limited by the rules banning students form using any powertools (and many other things you need to actaully do anything), this is so true. It means you always having to wait for a teacher to progress, which aside from making project progression tediosuly slow also prevents you learning to work independently. Don't avoid dangerous things, learn to do dangerous things safely. :roll:
The other thing that de-railed my potential engineering career was the required high grades in maths, which I simply couldn't get. Suppose you could say that means I was never cut out to be an engineer, which is what I beleived for a long time.
I tried to do partical subjects and find ways to learn trades like woodworking, car maintains, anything like that through GCSEs and A-levels. But in short the in school D&T remained borderline useless right thorugh till the end of my time at school... this despite being absurbly well funded. They had proper engineering laths, mills, bandsaws, laser cutters, the works! Of course I still was not aloud to use 90% of it
With no profeessionally practical people in the family or as friends, I had not contacts in trades to learn outside school. Though I did ask a few people in local garages to teach me, they said they couldn't beceasue of Health, saftely and insurance issues :?
So I had no practical skills to speak of by the age of 17.
Things only changed when my parents offered to pay for me to go here for a year: http://www.ibtc.co.uk which was lifechanging, if not extremly difficult due to a complete loss of faith in myself by this point (repeatly trying and failing to achieve what I wanted).
I have found that volunteering is the way to go if you want to learn practical skills, thought this has been alot easier with the base to build on that IBTC course provided. I have since been a conservation volunteer for 5 years at too many places to list here.
I now volunteer for the Norfolk wildlife trust and Mid-Norfolk railway. And get part time paid work with a charity wood workshop (making crates and so on for the charity to sell).
All this practical volunteering has finally rebuilt all the confidence lost in the education system (aka school) and I feel like my practical knowledge and capabilities are now decidedly above average.
In short I don't think lack of desire to become engineers is the problem, least not on my generation (born in early 1990s). Its lack of meaningful opportunity and guidence with the education system for anyone other than academics.
So sorry for the Autobiography! But I thought it was relevant.
finneyb
Established Member
Rhyolith
Your point about no engineering family or friends contacts is highly pertinent.
The number of times I've seen children follow their parents careers is remarkable - or perhaps it isn't the parent's career is 'normal' to the child, so follows it.
Brian
Your point about no engineering family or friends contacts is highly pertinent.
The number of times I've seen children follow their parents careers is remarkable - or perhaps it isn't the parent's career is 'normal' to the child, so follows it.
Brian
Stanleymonkey
Established Member
thick_mike":2g4es3t1 said:
I think the answer to the original poster's question is to remove the current government. They have pushed the current ridiculous curriculum. Primary education needs to be opened up for starters and children need to be doing more DT so they can go to secondary school with some semblance of basic skills.
First can I thank everyone who has responded to my original post. I have certainly got more information on peoples’ views which can only be beneficial to the debate. Rhyolith I feel for you havening your initial enthusiasm for engineering worn down. It is true though that to do a degree course you do need a good grasp of mathematics to be able to tackle such subjects as fluid mechanics and thermodynamics but this should not be the only course. Although I had the opportunity to go to University to study Chemical Engineering my cousin went a different route. He took on an apprenticeship were he could also study at a Technical College to gain an HND. He went on to be one of Fords top experts in fuel injection.
I know when I was at school I had great teachers who really knew their subjects and could pass on knowledge with enthusiasm. From what I can see modern teachers struggle to find time due to the enormous amount of bureaucracy put upon them. We also do not attract high fliers into the profession because of the poor status and relatively low pay. Of course engineering also has the same problem with status in this country. I remember when BG decided to call their gas fitters ‘Gas Engineers’, a number of leaders of engineering companies complained but they still went ahead. I have a friend who is a Chartered Gas Engineer. He builds and runs major gas plant the type that has 24” to 36” pipelines and he was incredulous. Until we stop all sundry calling themselves engineers it will not change.
So where do we go. It should be high on the agenda of politicians who use words about building our manufacturing and hi-tech companies but as many of them studied politics or humanities and have never worked in the real world they haven’t got a clue. I guess we should push more ourselves but how? The debate goes on!
I know when I was at school I had great teachers who really knew their subjects and could pass on knowledge with enthusiasm. From what I can see modern teachers struggle to find time due to the enormous amount of bureaucracy put upon them. We also do not attract high fliers into the profession because of the poor status and relatively low pay. Of course engineering also has the same problem with status in this country. I remember when BG decided to call their gas fitters ‘Gas Engineers’, a number of leaders of engineering companies complained but they still went ahead. I have a friend who is a Chartered Gas Engineer. He builds and runs major gas plant the type that has 24” to 36” pipelines and he was incredulous. Until we stop all sundry calling themselves engineers it will not change.
So where do we go. It should be high on the agenda of politicians who use words about building our manufacturing and hi-tech companies but as many of them studied politics or humanities and have never worked in the real world they haven’t got a clue. I guess we should push more ourselves but how? The debate goes on!
Keith 66
Established Member
I work in a school as a D&T technician, i am increasingly disilusioned with the way the subject is going. It is being dumbed down year on year.
In our school we had a typical 1970's workshop set up with a lot of high quality machinery, the drive to academy status saw this scrapped & replaced with far eastern tat barely fit for purpose. THis happened & is still happening all over the country. And yet we still use tools, Kids get to do woodwork get to do woodturning & actually make stuff. They get to use the metal lathe & do some basic forge work, We do casting metal as well, much of this is done as demonstrations but i always try & get the kids involved. For most of them it is the first time they will have ever created something real & the look of pride on their faces is why i still do the job.
The teachers have a problem they have to deliver the sylabus nothing more, The kids are not there to learn they are there to pass the exams & shove the league tables up. Several times i have pulled the teacher up saying "This is plain wrong" but have then had to go along with it because the person that wrote the curriculum got it wrong but its now part of the exam so its gospel & cant be changed.
The new curriculum was aparently written by someone who has taught D&T for just three years. Think that sums it up.
In our school we had a typical 1970's workshop set up with a lot of high quality machinery, the drive to academy status saw this scrapped & replaced with far eastern tat barely fit for purpose. THis happened & is still happening all over the country. And yet we still use tools, Kids get to do woodwork get to do woodturning & actually make stuff. They get to use the metal lathe & do some basic forge work, We do casting metal as well, much of this is done as demonstrations but i always try & get the kids involved. For most of them it is the first time they will have ever created something real & the look of pride on their faces is why i still do the job.
The teachers have a problem they have to deliver the sylabus nothing more, The kids are not there to learn they are there to pass the exams & shove the league tables up. Several times i have pulled the teacher up saying "This is plain wrong" but have then had to go along with it because the person that wrote the curriculum got it wrong but its now part of the exam so its gospel & cant be changed.
The new curriculum was aparently written by someone who has taught D&T for just three years. Think that sums it up.
Rhyolith
Established Member
Keith 66, I really relate with everything you said there.
Its an ongoing cultural, socail and political obession with acamdemia. Literally nothing that is not a "traditional" academic subject gets any serious attention in mainstream education. It seems like eveyone thinks the ultimate form of human is an academic perfectionist :? (and maybe the odd olypmic athlete)
Bracspin I think whats needed is a cultural, social and potitical recognition of the value of practical skills, including but not just limited to engineering. How to do that is just not a simple or easy question to answer...
Mostly I try to settle for learning and preserving practical skills from the past so they are still here when everyone once again realises we need them.
Its an ongoing cultural, socail and political obession with acamdemia. Literally nothing that is not a "traditional" academic subject gets any serious attention in mainstream education. It seems like eveyone thinks the ultimate form of human is an academic perfectionist :? (and maybe the odd olypmic athlete)
Bracspin I think whats needed is a cultural, social and potitical recognition of the value of practical skills, including but not just limited to engineering. How to do that is just not a simple or easy question to answer...
Mostly I try to settle for learning and preserving practical skills from the past so they are still here when everyone once again realises we need them.
AES
Established Member
Very interesting thread this, and if Keith 66 is to be believed (NO reason to doubt it), then very sad for the future of "GB Ltd" too.
There have been threads on this Forum along these lines before, and being a "boring old forz" who did a "proper" apprenticeship in the RAF starting in 1961 and now a permanent expat, I for one regret the way things seem to be going in UK.
NO commercial aircraft built in UK at all as far as I know, and only the design and build of wings (OK, they ARE important!) for Airbuses, plus a lot of aircraft components (OK also important) being made in UK today.
I remember a programme on TV where (I think) Top Gear had a line up of all the vehicles made in Britain, and at 1st sight, very impressive it was too. But apart from JCB, Morgan, some trucks, and some Formula 1 stuff (OK, all also important of course), they included stuff like Datsun, Peugeot, Toyota, etc, in that line up. I may be wrong about this, but I THINK these cars are not designed in UK but simply assembled there, being made from components made in UK but fabricated on tooling designed and built elsewhere.
And I'm often reading (on this Forum too) that those who interview for apprentice positions (for example) find that the majority of school leavers are just "not fit for purpose".
It's all very, very sad, especially when you think of all the "stuff" that came out of Birmingham (for example) and went all over the world, even as fairly recently as back when I was a lad.
So I think the 1st question is "does this matter"?
If, as it seems to me as an interested external observer, the answer from politicians of all stripes and from the educational establishment is "No, not really. There are better fish to fry these days", then I reckon us "boring old forzes" should just shut up and carry on enjoying ourselves mumbling into our beards about "fings ain't what they used ter be".
But IF, (as I happen to believe) the answer to my 1st question is "Yes, it really does matter" then to me, rightly or wrongly, "GB Ltd" needs to stop whinging about Brexit (again for example) and get on and start learning how to be competitive in ALL areas.
As suggested by Keith and others, I also believe that this starts with education and learning in all it's aspects, for which you all "over there" (I have no voting rights in UK) ought to be doing something about by knocking some sense into the heads of politicians (IF possible!) and into the educational establishment. (And while you're about it, you can all start doing something about the "management" of many UK companies too)!
But one thing is for sure, if "GB Ltd" doesn't do something soon (and a pretty radical something too), I think it will be too late, 'cos there are plenty of other countries who are, and continue to be, competitive in many (if not all) areas.
Going back to my vehicles examples above, I drive on German, Swiss, and French motorways pretty frequently and although not a fanatical spotter, it's rare that I see a UK-built truck.
My take - perhaps I really am a "boring old forz" who's time has come and gone already. Dunno.
But thanks for an interesting thread anyway.
AES
There have been threads on this Forum along these lines before, and being a "boring old forz" who did a "proper" apprenticeship in the RAF starting in 1961 and now a permanent expat, I for one regret the way things seem to be going in UK.
NO commercial aircraft built in UK at all as far as I know, and only the design and build of wings (OK, they ARE important!) for Airbuses, plus a lot of aircraft components (OK also important) being made in UK today.
I remember a programme on TV where (I think) Top Gear had a line up of all the vehicles made in Britain, and at 1st sight, very impressive it was too. But apart from JCB, Morgan, some trucks, and some Formula 1 stuff (OK, all also important of course), they included stuff like Datsun, Peugeot, Toyota, etc, in that line up. I may be wrong about this, but I THINK these cars are not designed in UK but simply assembled there, being made from components made in UK but fabricated on tooling designed and built elsewhere.
And I'm often reading (on this Forum too) that those who interview for apprentice positions (for example) find that the majority of school leavers are just "not fit for purpose".
It's all very, very sad, especially when you think of all the "stuff" that came out of Birmingham (for example) and went all over the world, even as fairly recently as back when I was a lad.
So I think the 1st question is "does this matter"?
If, as it seems to me as an interested external observer, the answer from politicians of all stripes and from the educational establishment is "No, not really. There are better fish to fry these days", then I reckon us "boring old forzes" should just shut up and carry on enjoying ourselves mumbling into our beards about "fings ain't what they used ter be".
But IF, (as I happen to believe) the answer to my 1st question is "Yes, it really does matter" then to me, rightly or wrongly, "GB Ltd" needs to stop whinging about Brexit (again for example) and get on and start learning how to be competitive in ALL areas.
As suggested by Keith and others, I also believe that this starts with education and learning in all it's aspects, for which you all "over there" (I have no voting rights in UK) ought to be doing something about by knocking some sense into the heads of politicians (IF possible!) and into the educational establishment. (And while you're about it, you can all start doing something about the "management" of many UK companies too)!
But one thing is for sure, if "GB Ltd" doesn't do something soon (and a pretty radical something too), I think it will be too late, 'cos there are plenty of other countries who are, and continue to be, competitive in many (if not all) areas.
Going back to my vehicles examples above, I drive on German, Swiss, and French motorways pretty frequently and although not a fanatical spotter, it's rare that I see a UK-built truck.
My take - perhaps I really am a "boring old forz" who's time has come and gone already. Dunno.
But thanks for an interesting thread anyway.
AES
AJB Temple
Finely figured
Looking at the preceding posts, my take is it is pointless bemoaning lack of skills and poor D&T teaching etc. There is no merit in training people with design and making skills, unless we have an industry to employ them, and demand for the products of that industry. We have neither, as our culture has shifted to buy cheap imported goods and accept limited longevity.
This forum is biased in a number of ways: already full of people who have skills or aspire to, hence that is valued here. It skews attitudes. It is interesting that a lot of posts on forums such as this recommend tools that are made in, for example China, “value” being key apparently. How this helps UK industry is a mystery to me. There seems to be a desire for UK jobs and training to be supported, but no desire to shoulder the cost and behavioural burden.
We have an education system that is driven by political objectives (left, centre and right) which incentivise universities to haul in lots of undergraduates, as they (universities) are paid most from maximising student numbers. This is great for employers like me, because it helps to drive wages down, as graduate input is constantly replenished at a rate faster than jobs can be created. Already many graduates have jobs that do not require degrees. It is not good for young people.
High graduate numbers keeps unemployment statistics down. It is in fact delusional, but hey ho.
Artificial intelligence and advanced CNC and 3D print production has radically changed the demand for skills. The Chinese have embraced this and, with a state supported currency, are making great global progress. Artisan skills, however desirable, will have no measurable impact on the UK economy. We are not producing graduates with the skills we will need in 5 or 10 years. In 5 or 10 years the UK risks being an economic backwater.
Brexit is delivering higher costs and less income in real terms to many, perhaps most people. It has also materially alienated our nearest and largest market. As I am married to an EU citizen and spend a good deal of time on mainland Europe, I have seen attitudes shift, and not in our favour. There is an assumption among many here in the UK that we will find new markets somewhere, and that the materially devalued £ will make exports attractive. This is true but we need the goods to export and we need them not to have a sizeable proportion of imported (much more expensive now) components.
We have a media and general populace with a very negative attitude to banks and financial services. Given this sector contributes vastly to taxes and the economy, and is also a major driver or influencer for pensions for our increasingly elderly population, this negativity seems irrational and often ignorant. We should now be treating it as our economic safety net and building attractiveness. Doing otherwise is shooting ourselves in the foot.
The political instability with a slender Tory majority and impassioned “tax business / tax the rich” approach of the left, is very off putting for business people like me when it comes to investment and increasing my payroll spend. This attitude, one I am not alone in having, puts a brake on the economy. I am not a big employer - around 50 in London - but I have held back on expansion in this country because the risks are too high. I don’t care what colour government is in power as long as they deliver stability. That is not happening.
In conclusion, it is pure fantasy to think that having more apprenticeships or vocational training will do anything at all. It puts the cart before the horse. We actually need entrepreneurial risk takers, suitably incentivised, to create the ideas, and then create the industry to drive the demand for labour.
This forum is biased in a number of ways: already full of people who have skills or aspire to, hence that is valued here. It skews attitudes. It is interesting that a lot of posts on forums such as this recommend tools that are made in, for example China, “value” being key apparently. How this helps UK industry is a mystery to me. There seems to be a desire for UK jobs and training to be supported, but no desire to shoulder the cost and behavioural burden.
We have an education system that is driven by political objectives (left, centre and right) which incentivise universities to haul in lots of undergraduates, as they (universities) are paid most from maximising student numbers. This is great for employers like me, because it helps to drive wages down, as graduate input is constantly replenished at a rate faster than jobs can be created. Already many graduates have jobs that do not require degrees. It is not good for young people.
High graduate numbers keeps unemployment statistics down. It is in fact delusional, but hey ho.
Artificial intelligence and advanced CNC and 3D print production has radically changed the demand for skills. The Chinese have embraced this and, with a state supported currency, are making great global progress. Artisan skills, however desirable, will have no measurable impact on the UK economy. We are not producing graduates with the skills we will need in 5 or 10 years. In 5 or 10 years the UK risks being an economic backwater.
Brexit is delivering higher costs and less income in real terms to many, perhaps most people. It has also materially alienated our nearest and largest market. As I am married to an EU citizen and spend a good deal of time on mainland Europe, I have seen attitudes shift, and not in our favour. There is an assumption among many here in the UK that we will find new markets somewhere, and that the materially devalued £ will make exports attractive. This is true but we need the goods to export and we need them not to have a sizeable proportion of imported (much more expensive now) components.
We have a media and general populace with a very negative attitude to banks and financial services. Given this sector contributes vastly to taxes and the economy, and is also a major driver or influencer for pensions for our increasingly elderly population, this negativity seems irrational and often ignorant. We should now be treating it as our economic safety net and building attractiveness. Doing otherwise is shooting ourselves in the foot.
The political instability with a slender Tory majority and impassioned “tax business / tax the rich” approach of the left, is very off putting for business people like me when it comes to investment and increasing my payroll spend. This attitude, one I am not alone in having, puts a brake on the economy. I am not a big employer - around 50 in London - but I have held back on expansion in this country because the risks are too high. I don’t care what colour government is in power as long as they deliver stability. That is not happening.
In conclusion, it is pure fantasy to think that having more apprenticeships or vocational training will do anything at all. It puts the cart before the horse. We actually need entrepreneurial risk takers, suitably incentivised, to create the ideas, and then create the industry to drive the demand for labour.
Rhyolith
Established Member
Thanks AJB, thats got me thinking some more!
You say that more vocational training is a fantasy without demand, I think this is missing a large part of the point of education. Its meant to expand minds and allow people to be the best they can be, setting them up for life... its not just about providing the countries workforce.
Going into the current education system, naturally only a small proportion of thr population are going to be gifted or even 'useful' academics (less than 20% i reckon). Likewise there is always going to be a proportion (and i reckon a high proportion) who are naturally vocational, ingoring this and force training these people as something we deem the economey to 'need' is not making them the best they could be; nor is it a very efficent use of a worksforce.
You say that more vocational training is a fantasy without demand, I think this is missing a large part of the point of education. Its meant to expand minds and allow people to be the best they can be, setting them up for life... its not just about providing the countries workforce.
Going into the current education system, naturally only a small proportion of thr population are going to be gifted or even 'useful' academics (less than 20% i reckon). Likewise there is always going to be a proportion (and i reckon a high proportion) who are naturally vocational, ingoring this and force training these people as something we deem the economey to 'need' is not making them the best they could be; nor is it a very efficent use of a worksforce.
AES
Established Member
Thanks "AJB", interesting post with more than just a little "truth and logic" in it.
As per my post (above), perhaps I really am a "boring old forz" (just like my Dad was!) always bemoaning a past which it is neither possible nor desirable to try and recreate.
I just really dunno, but interesting discussion all the same, thanks all.
AES
As per my post (above), perhaps I really am a "boring old forz" (just like my Dad was!) always bemoaning a past which it is neither possible nor desirable to try and recreate.
I just really dunno, but interesting discussion all the same, thanks all.
AES
Droogs
Not the Sharpest Moderator in the box
Finance may be the backbone of our economy, that's true but the reason that industry sector is despised as it is, is due to the core nature of it's leaders as seen by the rest of the population at large. In that they are in terms of national wealth parasitic almost vampiric in siphoning off most of it for themselves. I don't begrudge anyone success or wealth but excessive wealth held by a few people is disgusting, espescially when there are so many suffering due to the policies enacted in order to increase theirs at the suffering of others. Personally i feel they should have let the effers institutions fail in 2008 and gone after the personal wealth of those who run them in order to mitigate the damage. There are institutions among them that had a deliberate policy of forcing running successful business to collapse for their own short term profit rather than invest for everyones long tem profit. No nation can be successful when those running these institution are so shortsighted. We continue to consume at a rate that is unsustainable but don't want to do the dirty mannual work needed so palm this off parts of the world where the working practices would cause uproar here.
The main reason we don't educate our young to think for themselves, teach them how to make things or that making anything other than money is good is that in general we are a decadent society in the last stages of it's imperial glory. Sad but true, Brexit being the prime example along with the slide of our educational standards compared to how the rest of the world is doing. We used to be admired and emulated, but no more.
well rant over
The main reason we don't educate our young to think for themselves, teach them how to make things or that making anything other than money is good is that in general we are a decadent society in the last stages of it's imperial glory. Sad but true, Brexit being the prime example along with the slide of our educational standards compared to how the rest of the world is doing. We used to be admired and emulated, but no more.
well rant over
AJB Temple
Finely figured
Droogs. This is natural emotion but factually completely wrong. I am not supporting a few highly paid rogue bankers from a decade ago - just being rational. Many times I have heard the "should have let them collapse and make the bankers pay". It is nonsense. When RBS reached the brink of collapse, it's balance sheet and economic scale was not dissimilar to that of the rest of the UK economy. It had millions of retail clients, probably similar to you, with savings and mortgages and credit cards and loans. So, we let it collapse. Then what? Do we let all these retail customers crash and burn as well? And all the business customers too. Lets just blame the bankers, not the Treasury , government, wider regulators and Bank of England. It is so much easier to just pin the blame on a few people.
Now let's look at the fat cats. I can't recall off hand how many employees RBS had. Tens of thousands. The vast majority of these are ordinary people with ordinary jobs and salaries, working in branches, doing administration and so on. A few dozen were earning serious money (millions) and F Goodwin was among them. A few hundred more were earning hundreds of thousands. But that is about it - the snowy cap of a very large mountain. Now, even if you could prove culpability for all these people (in a banking crisis that started rolling across the pond with the sub-prime / Lehman debacle) - which is neither likely nor likely to even be true (that they were all culpable), and even if the law allowed recovery of all personal assets (which it doesn't) - how much money do you think would be recovered? I suggest it is like comparing a bath tub to the Atlantic ocean.
Whilst everyone talks about education - and I agree that it is a good thing - we have no real mechanism whatsoever for encouraging entrepreneurial growth. Instead we have a ludicrous "gig" economy. Our retail sector is being destroyed by US companies like Amazon. We moan that they pay no tax - but they do. They just export their profits to their home territory and tax shelters and pay it there. We celebrate the creation of 20,000 low paid jobs. Left wing politicians say they would raise taxes. Fine, kiss goodbye to global inward investment.
There is no point educating kids and saying "the jobs will come" if we do not create fertile conditions for that. It is great that people (some) want to learn for its own sake. But in such cases we should eliminate the laughable so called "vocational" degrees in pretend subjects that I see candidates emerging from university with. To avoid causing offence I would not wish to denigate particular subjects, but honestly some of the people coming out of former polytechnics with a 2.2 in public relations, the history of media studies, or my current favourite, gender studies, are not likely to set the world of business alight. =The standard statistic is that a degree adds £250k to lifelong earnings and creates about £60k of debt. It ignores the lack of income during the degree period. As AI, lack of market post Brexit and mechanisation consumes UK jobs, the degree benefit will narrow sharply and very rapidly in my opinion. We need to address this but we do not have very clever politicians. As we want to pay them as little as possible and pay no one more than the prime minister gets, we are unlikely to attract our top thinkers to politics either. Idiotic dumbing down to the lowest common denominator is a big risk in my view. AJ
Now let's look at the fat cats. I can't recall off hand how many employees RBS had. Tens of thousands. The vast majority of these are ordinary people with ordinary jobs and salaries, working in branches, doing administration and so on. A few dozen were earning serious money (millions) and F Goodwin was among them. A few hundred more were earning hundreds of thousands. But that is about it - the snowy cap of a very large mountain. Now, even if you could prove culpability for all these people (in a banking crisis that started rolling across the pond with the sub-prime / Lehman debacle) - which is neither likely nor likely to even be true (that they were all culpable), and even if the law allowed recovery of all personal assets (which it doesn't) - how much money do you think would be recovered? I suggest it is like comparing a bath tub to the Atlantic ocean.
Whilst everyone talks about education - and I agree that it is a good thing - we have no real mechanism whatsoever for encouraging entrepreneurial growth. Instead we have a ludicrous "gig" economy. Our retail sector is being destroyed by US companies like Amazon. We moan that they pay no tax - but they do. They just export their profits to their home territory and tax shelters and pay it there. We celebrate the creation of 20,000 low paid jobs. Left wing politicians say they would raise taxes. Fine, kiss goodbye to global inward investment.
There is no point educating kids and saying "the jobs will come" if we do not create fertile conditions for that. It is great that people (some) want to learn for its own sake. But in such cases we should eliminate the laughable so called "vocational" degrees in pretend subjects that I see candidates emerging from university with. To avoid causing offence I would not wish to denigate particular subjects, but honestly some of the people coming out of former polytechnics with a 2.2 in public relations, the history of media studies, or my current favourite, gender studies, are not likely to set the world of business alight. =The standard statistic is that a degree adds £250k to lifelong earnings and creates about £60k of debt. It ignores the lack of income during the degree period. As AI, lack of market post Brexit and mechanisation consumes UK jobs, the degree benefit will narrow sharply and very rapidly in my opinion. We need to address this but we do not have very clever politicians. As we want to pay them as little as possible and pay no one more than the prime minister gets, we are unlikely to attract our top thinkers to politics either. Idiotic dumbing down to the lowest common denominator is a big risk in my view. AJ
AJB Temple
Finely figured
I should add, whilst I do not personally think Brexit was a smart vote or founded on rationality (as opposed to sentiment), it makes very little difference to me as I have dual passports and can live in Germany or Switzerland any time I like, so this is not colouring my views. Also I am not an employee (except I employ myself) and am old enough that I am entirely relaxed about business and work. It just depresses me that we are creating such a weak future for our kids. We need to let go of past failings (banking crisis and all that) and look forward. We can't change history but we can shape a future. Just saying "we will stand on our town two feet" or words to that effect, along with "it will be tough at first but in the long run it will be fine" does not fill me with confidence that there is a plan. We need a business plan for the UK!
