thetyreman
Established Member
heimlaga":2euhwu7y said:
it sounds like you have achieved a lot though, not many people could do all those things, no need to be so hard on yourself.
How do we get kids to be engineers
- Thread starter bracspin
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it sounds like you have achieved a lot though, not many people could do all those things, no need to be so hard on yourself.
heimlaga
Established Member
I am not hard on myself. I am very proud of my skills....... I just find it incredibly ironic that employers don't want an engineer with theese qualifications. Instead they want an upper class kid with no skills and qualifications whatsoever.
Isn't it ridiculous! Totally bloody damned ridiculous
No wonder then that engineering is on a downward slope!
Isn't it ridiculous! Totally bloody damned ridiculous
No wonder then that engineering is on a downward slope!
Ttrees
Iroko loco!
I was doing a brief turning & milling course a while back, but was unable to finish it, but I enjoyed it.
It may not have been a engineering course but it was a good start.
The only thing I couldn't understand was the mentality of the tutor...
I told him I wasn't suitable for the 9 to 5 because of various things.
He could not get his head around the fact that one might want to do their own thing.
I think he took it up that I was trying to be a wise guy, as I told him that I suffered fatigue and other stuff
and working on my own at whatever time, day or night at this profession might be suitable for me.
And maybe I might have said the steel doesn't care what time it is (hammer)
Its a different age now where we can be who we want to be
What's stopping anyone from learning ?
I think everyone has one good idea, that would make their lives easier if they made whatever article it be.
This in my mind is what engineering is.
I read here frequently about the folks that learned a lifetime of skills from the ol WW2 engineers who became tutors.
From looking and reading about old tools and factory's making them, plenty of firms started tool production after the war.
These people were innovators with a necessity is the mother of invention attitude
Its still a great day for the engineer if you ask me, things just need to be done differently than before.
I just know you have your eyes on some metal working machines Heimlaga, if you don't allready own some
Tom
It may not have been a engineering course but it was a good start.
The only thing I couldn't understand was the mentality of the tutor...
I told him I wasn't suitable for the 9 to 5 because of various things.
He could not get his head around the fact that one might want to do their own thing.
I think he took it up that I was trying to be a wise guy, as I told him that I suffered fatigue and other stuff
and working on my own at whatever time, day or night at this profession might be suitable for me.
And maybe I might have said the steel doesn't care what time it is (hammer)
Its a different age now where we can be who we want to be
What's stopping anyone from learning ?
I think everyone has one good idea, that would make their lives easier if they made whatever article it be.
This in my mind is what engineering is.
I read here frequently about the folks that learned a lifetime of skills from the ol WW2 engineers who became tutors.
From looking and reading about old tools and factory's making them, plenty of firms started tool production after the war.
These people were innovators with a necessity is the mother of invention attitude
Its still a great day for the engineer if you ask me, things just need to be done differently than before.
I just know you have your eyes on some metal working machines Heimlaga, if you don't allready own some
Tom
I've just read this whole thread and I'm not surprised with some of the views aired. Most of which I agree with, the lack of female Engineers is a major concern though not as large as the lack of newly qualified Engineers with any practical knowledge.
I am also an Engineer, of the civil variety, and have been qualified for 11 years now.
I did an apprenticeship for 4 years which was mainly funded by a major civil engineering firm. This gave me a HND in Civil Engineering and lots of more valuable practical experience. The qualification is just the gateway through to the industry, the real skill is in the application of the theoretical knowledge. It is this ability to apply engineering theory to solve problems that makes a good Engineer, not a qualification.
As for how do we encourage young people to want to be Engineers, well education of what we actually do would be a good start.
When I first went to college after leaving school I chose to do A levels (this turned out to be a bad choice) the physics Tutor asked all the students in his class what they wanted to do with their futures. Everyone stated things like, Accountant, Banker, Psychologist, Criminologist with a coupe of Doctors thrown in. Finally it came to my turn, I said I wanted to become an Engineer. the Tutor responded with, "well thank god there is one person in this room that wants to do something worthwhile!" Read into that what you will but at 17 I was pretty shocked. The rest of the students in the room started asking why I was there if I wanted to be a mechanic? I think this shows that a lot of young people don't actually know what Engineers do. They assumed that Engineers should be dressed in oily overalls any rolling about underneath an old car. Funnily enough though I do actually like doing that!
As for how we go about changing that perception, I think this needs to be industry lead. We cannot rely upon the Government to do this. Experience days in real workplaces, presentations and engineering workshops conducted in schools done by Engineers working in industry I believe would be very worthwhile. The Institute of Civil Engineers organises these so to any other Engineers out there, stop moaning about the lack of Engineers and get involved!
Finally, on the subject of apprenticeships, anyone who I thinking of doing one or has a relative considering it read this. I cannot recommend this learning route highly enough but not all apprenticeships are created equal. Be careful when choosing which one to go for, some do not result in recognised formal qualification which you can take with you through the rest of your career. Do your research into the qualifications that the industry requires and which are recognised by the relevant institutions. For example, my HND which despite being a "proper" qualification is not actually fully recognised by the Institute of Civil Engineers to go straight to Incorporated Engineer level. I have got to gain accreditation at Engineering Technician level before I can move onto my Incorporated Engineer. (FYI this has now been addressed, the syllabus altered and subsequent years are now accepted, doesn't help me much though)
If anyone would like some more information on where they can get involved in promoting Civil Engineering to young people have a look here on how to become an ICE Ambassador;
https://www.ice.org.uk/about-ice/what-w ... ung-people
I am also an Engineer, of the civil variety, and have been qualified for 11 years now.
I did an apprenticeship for 4 years which was mainly funded by a major civil engineering firm. This gave me a HND in Civil Engineering and lots of more valuable practical experience. The qualification is just the gateway through to the industry, the real skill is in the application of the theoretical knowledge. It is this ability to apply engineering theory to solve problems that makes a good Engineer, not a qualification.
As for how do we encourage young people to want to be Engineers, well education of what we actually do would be a good start.
When I first went to college after leaving school I chose to do A levels (this turned out to be a bad choice) the physics Tutor asked all the students in his class what they wanted to do with their futures. Everyone stated things like, Accountant, Banker, Psychologist, Criminologist with a coupe of Doctors thrown in. Finally it came to my turn, I said I wanted to become an Engineer. the Tutor responded with, "well thank god there is one person in this room that wants to do something worthwhile!" Read into that what you will but at 17 I was pretty shocked. The rest of the students in the room started asking why I was there if I wanted to be a mechanic? I think this shows that a lot of young people don't actually know what Engineers do. They assumed that Engineers should be dressed in oily overalls any rolling about underneath an old car. Funnily enough though I do actually like doing that!
As for how we go about changing that perception, I think this needs to be industry lead. We cannot rely upon the Government to do this. Experience days in real workplaces, presentations and engineering workshops conducted in schools done by Engineers working in industry I believe would be very worthwhile. The Institute of Civil Engineers organises these so to any other Engineers out there, stop moaning about the lack of Engineers and get involved!
Finally, on the subject of apprenticeships, anyone who I thinking of doing one or has a relative considering it read this. I cannot recommend this learning route highly enough but not all apprenticeships are created equal. Be careful when choosing which one to go for, some do not result in recognised formal qualification which you can take with you through the rest of your career. Do your research into the qualifications that the industry requires and which are recognised by the relevant institutions. For example, my HND which despite being a "proper" qualification is not actually fully recognised by the Institute of Civil Engineers to go straight to Incorporated Engineer level. I have got to gain accreditation at Engineering Technician level before I can move onto my Incorporated Engineer. (FYI this has now been addressed, the syllabus altered and subsequent years are now accepted, doesn't help me much though)
If anyone would like some more information on where they can get involved in promoting Civil Engineering to young people have a look here on how to become an ICE Ambassador;
https://www.ice.org.uk/about-ice/what-w ... ung-people
AES
Established Member
+1 for "not all apprenticeships are equal" (or they weren't in my time anyway); and another +1 for "a good apprenticeship is a good way into professional engineering".
The stuff I learnt was actually, now I look back on it, aimed exactly at applying "basic knowledge and skills" to problem solving.
AES
The stuff I learnt was actually, now I look back on it, aimed exactly at applying "basic knowledge and skills" to problem solving.
AES
Keith 66
Established Member
Now I look back on it said:
AES
Established Member
I presume you're a teacher Keith 66?
With all due respect to you and your many colleagues (really, truly), it's a fat lot of good all us boring old "f---s" going on bemoaning things on this Forum. No one of any importance is even going to read this thread, and I for one don't even have any kids.
Surely what's needed is for all concerned parents, and for all concerned teachers to be shouting out "it's all going wrong folks" to those that do matter
When I was a kid in school we had a board of school governors, and above them, a local education authority, including school inspectors (all part of the local county council). I guess things have changed a lot since then (I left school in 1961), but shouldn't you all be telling these people, or their current equivalents, that they making a mistake and therefore potentially ruining the country's future???
I repeat, I make the above comment with respect - I just don't know how "UK works" these days, but there must be someone who can be made to listen, surely?
AES
With all due respect to you and your many colleagues (really, truly), it's a fat lot of good all us boring old "f---s" going on bemoaning things on this Forum. No one of any importance is even going to read this thread, and I for one don't even have any kids.
Surely what's needed is for all concerned parents, and for all concerned teachers to be shouting out "it's all going wrong folks" to those that do matter
When I was a kid in school we had a board of school governors, and above them, a local education authority, including school inspectors (all part of the local county council). I guess things have changed a lot since then (I left school in 1961), but shouldn't you all be telling these people, or their current equivalents, that they making a mistake and therefore potentially ruining the country's future???
I repeat, I make the above comment with respect - I just don't know how "UK works" these days, but there must be someone who can be made to listen, surely?
AES
Keith 66
Established Member
Im just the D&T Workshop Technician. Our school is relatively small & has a pretty good set up of equipment compared to a lot of schools today. The D&T teachers i work with are the first to admit they have zero knowledge of woodwork & metalwork so rely heavily on me to teach them on the job as it were, Pity i ain't paid accordingly! Its quite normal in many schools for the technician to prepare materials do maintenance & ordering & have virtually no interaction with the pupils, he will just stay in his room. It would seem that many teachers prefer it this way. Im lucky that im accepted as a valued member of a team with knowledge the others simply do not have. So i get to do all the good bits but miss out on most of the bad, I would not be a teacher at any price!
Tasky
Established Member
I'd guess the same way one becomes the line/project manager of a Civil Engineering department, without even knowing what an Engineer actually does...?DTR":1td47k9f said:
Woodwork is a Craft. This is D&T, not CD&T.
Our school was pretty advanced, in that while we did get to use a couple of machines in CDT, it was mostly just an exercise in understanding machine manufacturing (and flippin' child labour!!), which then fed into Designer brands (and how they're often just overpriced tat relying on brand name) before covering the Technology side, which was exploring merely the concept of CAD and CNC type manufacturing - We had computers, but they were barely word processors. Things like the Internet and colour monitors hadn't been invented yet.
We did have a craftsman who woodworked with the 6th Form guys, but we usually weren't allowed to touch anything sharp or hot or fun, or more expensive than MDF - We grew up thinking there was no other type of wood, and that you draw on it while someone else machines it to shape.
Rhyolith
Established Member
[quote
I don't really know how you change that. Obviously better leadership is required, but thats not a simple task however you look at it! Firstly you need to actually have the clout to effect change at the level, which i really don't think is doable unless you have overwhelming public support (i.e. a lot of people agree with you and are willing to say that publicly). Secondly you need to decide what "good" leadership would actually be, which is a huge debate in of itself and a big reason the first point does not (and probably will not) happen. Personally I think that all feels like a major lifetime project if I really wanted to make a difference and I have wasted enough time with the education system already.
Something else that keeps cropping up is the perceived obsolescence of practical skills (metalwork, woodwork, etc), now I think thats debatable but lets for now assume that those skills are indeed completely obsolete. I would still say they should be taught in schools, not because you need them, but because that way of thinking (particularly problem solving) is very very very..... very useful! It does not matter if you never going to go near a tool again, what any individual gets from that kind of eduction is a life skill. I think mentally, people are healthier with a practical skill under their belt and healthier people mean healthier country (if thats more important...).
----
Something I have assumed for is it health and safety is one of the other main reasons for the lack of practical skill taught, particularly in schools... at least its the excuse i always got. Would you tech teachers/technicians agree with that out of interest?
I have often heard people saying that the leadership of the education system (in the UK) is a big part of the problem, mainly said leadership thinking everyone should be educated as they were.AES":2ukh0eyy said:
I don't really know how you change that. Obviously better leadership is required, but thats not a simple task however you look at it! Firstly you need to actually have the clout to effect change at the level, which i really don't think is doable unless you have overwhelming public support (i.e. a lot of people agree with you and are willing to say that publicly). Secondly you need to decide what "good" leadership would actually be, which is a huge debate in of itself and a big reason the first point does not (and probably will not) happen. Personally I think that all feels like a major lifetime project if I really wanted to make a difference and I have wasted enough time with the education system already.
Something else that keeps cropping up is the perceived obsolescence of practical skills (metalwork, woodwork, etc), now I think thats debatable but lets for now assume that those skills are indeed completely obsolete. I would still say they should be taught in schools, not because you need them, but because that way of thinking (particularly problem solving) is very very very..... very useful! It does not matter if you never going to go near a tool again, what any individual gets from that kind of eduction is a life skill. I think mentally, people are healthier with a practical skill under their belt and healthier people mean healthier country (if thats more important...).
----
Something I have assumed for is it health and safety is one of the other main reasons for the lack of practical skill taught, particularly in schools... at least its the excuse i always got. Would you tech teachers/technicians agree with that out of interest?
AES
Established Member
I understand what you're saying Rhyolith, and sympathise to a degree. But I can only say that IF I had a school-age child, and IF I lived in UK, I'd be raising merry hell about the "reduced standards" that many have pointed to in this thread.
(And now I sound just like my Granny when I was a kid, 'cos every time I said "IF" she'd reply "The road to hell is paved with good intentions dear." And she was right of course. So perhaps I wouldn't be bothered to raise hell after all!)
But it does seem a pity that so many in this thread give concrete examples of current problems re raising new engineers but nothing seem to come of it. Or is that just "jaundiced me" again?
AES
(And now I sound just like my Granny when I was a kid, 'cos every time I said "IF" she'd reply "The road to hell is paved with good intentions dear." And she was right of course. So perhaps I wouldn't be bothered to raise hell after all!)
But it does seem a pity that so many in this thread give concrete examples of current problems re raising new engineers but nothing seem to come of it. Or is that just "jaundiced me" again?
AES
Keith 66
Established Member
Health & safety is an excuse often trotted out for why something should not be done, this is something that often happens in other fields too.
In a school pupil safety is of high importance & im sure that many teachers & heads of dept have become horribly risk averse, this is often due to ignorance or lack of knowledge the other aspect has been the drive towards the academy system with hundreds of schools being demolished & rebuilt under dodgy PFI deals, of course the service providers only real interest is to maximise profit. This led to delberate wholesale scrapping of first class high quality tools, equipment & machinery in favour of substandard far eastern junk barely fit or often unfit for purpose. No matter, its on an annual maintenace contract & the schools will pay royally through the nose for the privelidge of leasing such crap.
Its still going on.
In a school pupil safety is of high importance & im sure that many teachers & heads of dept have become horribly risk averse, this is often due to ignorance or lack of knowledge the other aspect has been the drive towards the academy system with hundreds of schools being demolished & rebuilt under dodgy PFI deals, of course the service providers only real interest is to maximise profit. This led to delberate wholesale scrapping of first class high quality tools, equipment & machinery in favour of substandard far eastern junk barely fit or often unfit for purpose. No matter, its on an annual maintenace contract & the schools will pay royally through the nose for the privelidge of leasing such crap.
Its still going on.
