How do I identify a good Stanley number 4?

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi all,

Pete Maddex has been really helpful in pushing me down "the slope". :lol: However, I don't want to keep imposing so I thought that I'd open it to everyone. I am after a Stanley number 4, the "vintage" variety in good condition.

I know that I don't want one with the plastic handles, but how do I identify a good 'un apart from looking at the general condition? Will the box, if one is present, help to identify the age? What age should I be looking for?

Here are a few planes that I have picked out at random, perhaps you would be good enough to critique them?

1. Stanley Number 4 described as near mint. Aren't these plastic handles?

2. Stanley Bailey Number 4.

3. Stanley Number 4

4. Stanley Number 4. You'll need to scroll down.

Thanks, in advance,
Neil

 

[AndyT]

Your first one is less likely to be good - very late manufacture - note the 12-204 model numbering and the plastic depth adjustment knob. Any of the others could be fine. I think the third is probably the oldest and nicest but I'm no Stanley planespotter by any means. 3 and 4 both show you that there is plenty of sharpenable iron left.

Without picking it up and looking you can't be 100% sure but they all look legit and ok to me. There are so many about that there is no need to buy a lemon.

 

[deema]

Most of the planes you have highlighted can with some worm be made into good planes. However, all of them will require a new blade to make them really good as a final finishing plane where you are looking at really good edge retention.

The problem I have found when buying old planes is that by the time you have purchased a very good blade, you will be adding a significant amount of money to the plane. In most cases, the new blade will justify a new chip breaker to really get full advantage. Then you may find the yoke is too short to operate the blade properly or the mouth needs widening. For a jack plane all of this is really not critical, anything half sharp, the right length will do.

I've been down this path and found that I had ended up investing a lot of money and time I to a plane that was then worth no mire than originally paid for it. (£15). Total outlay (£155). For my two penny worth I would buy something like a Clifton, Lie Nielson or Veritas plane second hand. Yes you will be saying goodbye to a lot more money, but, you will be able to sell it for virtually the same as you paid for it. Everything will work, and be correct with an excellent blade.

When deciding in a plane for smoothing, also look at the 4.5, which for many is a better option. I have both and always reach for the 4.5. A little wider, and heavier it gives a better finished surface IMO.

 

[Mr_P]

None of those excite me and I'll happily supply you with a made in England no.4 with wooden handles and a brass adjuster for £20 inc postage.

Let me know via pm and I'll dig a few out to choose from and photograph in the sale section reserved for you.

The top one in particular is very bad.

Can you not try a carboot or two ? All the above should be available for 5-10 quid.

 

[Paul Chapman]

The first one is rubbish. The other three look fairly new.

Trouble is you can't identify a good one from a picture. And ebay is a lottery at the best of times. You need to see it and handle it.

Go on, buy a Clifton - you know you want to :lol:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[deema]

If you particularly want an old plane, then there are a few web sites that allow you to date planes fairly easily. I have selected two, one for the Staley planes and the other for Record.


http://www.woodcentral.com/bparticles/pdatechart.pdf
http://www.recordhandplanes.com/dating.html

Most people agree, that the best planes were made before WW1, however, always try to check that it has the original blade and chip breaker. They do tend to get swapped about. The older plane irons have a curved top rather than having a top with sharp edges. Also I have found blades that state they are Cast Steel (engraved into the top) are not too bad. The plane will normally have had a lot of 'love' over the years bouncing around In a joiners bag (no 4 was a typical plane that got thrown into the jobbing bag as it is light and great from trimming stuff like doors etc) so expect a few hours of dedicated flattening, fettling etc to get it back into shape. If buying on eBay ask if the mouth has been fettled, if it has stay well away, most have been butchered into scrub planes and are totally useless for smoothing.

 

[mqbernardo]

if you can spot a type 11 plane, those are usually well regarded.

 

[wizard]

Try a car boot sale there are lots of no 4 planes there most about £5.00

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Don't worry about it too much. I think AndyT pretty much summed it up above.

Avoid anything with plastic handles. They are of relatively recent manufacture, and standards are known to have dropped to an unacceptable level. Anything else should be a perfectly workable plane. There may be a very small percentage difference in performance between the various 'types' - maybe 5% difference - but they'll all work. Worrying about the performance difference between a type 11 and a type 12 is a bit like worrying about the difference between a car with a 2.0l engine, and one with a 2.2l engine - they both go alright. The older a plane is, the more wear and tear it may have suffered (not universally true, but the chances increase with age).

Avoid anything with a lot of rust, because it may have pitted the cutting iron. Avoid anything with bits missing; they can be replaced, but with so many complete ones out there, why give yourself a problem? Avoid any with obviously short cutting irons; you may as well buy one with a lifetime's use left in it.

Even if by a stroke of unlikely bad luck you do buy a lemon, they're about £25 -£30 a pop including postage on Ebay for another, so the risk isn't really a huge one. The same applies to jack planes. Try planes are a slightly different proposition - they tend to be pricier and rarer, so buying from a dealer (money back if not completely satisfied) may be a pragmatic option.

 

[jimi43]

Try a car boot sale there are lots of no 4 planes there most about £5.00

Absolutely.

Like this one...

Lots of frog surface like this type...

Older iron...Sweetheart or Stanley Rule & Level if possible...

Works beautifully....

....and so nice that it was one of only two I kept when I had a recent purge of Baileys.

There are so very many variants, ages and "hybrid" or "Frankenplanes" out there because they are so easy to interchange parts on....so for someone just coming into hand planing...the choice is overwhelming.

I am sure we will all look out on FleaBay for you...and if we spot one...we'll PM you the link.

EDIT....but if you want one now...what CC and Andy say is perfect advice and you can look out for a better one later.

Jimi

 

[undergroundhunter]

Most of the planes you have highlighted can with some worm be made into good planes. However, all of them will require a new blade to make them really good as a final finishing plane where you are looking at really good edge retention.

I dont think that statment is entirly true, I have only ever replaced one when its too worn to use. All my planes are of the vintage variaty and I have never found the need to "upgrade" the balde or the chipbraker, they just needed a little work to get them where I wanted them. I have never had an issue with edge retention either, a smoother should only be used for a few strokes anyway (if your boards are machine prepped), if they are not they are used a little more but not too much as the jack and does most of the work.

The most I have ever spent on a plane was £50 and that was for an type 11 no4 with the origional blade. I don't personally feel the need to spend loads of money on a Lie Nielson etc, I would rather buy wood.

The above is just my opinion based on things I have experianced and found out for myself.

Matt

 

[lurcher]

i would go for a marples plane myself alot better than the stanley or record but thats just my opinion as sorby and marples planes are the same tool with a different name on now who can not want a sorby plane

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi all,

Thanks for all of the great information, I'll try to take it all on-board.

If anyone has any e-Bay links, I would appreciate a pm.

Thanks,
Neil

 

[Fat ferret]

No need to pay much, mine was 15quid for prewar record, just watch out for cracks in casting.

See you wanted stanley but not much in it, quality or price.

 

[bugbear]

Hi all,

Pete Maddex has been really helpful in pushing me down "the slope". :lol: However, I don't want to keep imposing so I thought that I'd open it to everyone. I am after a Stanley number 4, the "vintage" variety in good condition.

In general, older is better, but the older (pre 1930) Stanleys are made in the USA and carry a heavy premium (unless you're lucky, or prepared to synthesise your own luck by getting up at 4 AM like Jimi :wink: ).

I would recomend looking for a good Bailey model made by Record (assuming you're not fixated on Stanley as a brand). Good ones are easy to spot, since they (conveniently) had a distinctive blade design in their good period. Easy to spot on eBay or at a car boot sale.

Look for square corners on the top of the blade, and assuming the condition is OK, you'll have a fine tool, with good machining, materials. and even (prbably) a laminated blade. The only thing you'll probably NOT have is a rosewood tote, although you may well get a rosewood knob.

BugBear

 

[wizard]

just scraped an old record as i wanted the front knob

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Thanks to BB spotting it, I now have a number 4 on the way.

Neil

 

[J_SAMa]

Remember always wait patiently and check eBay often. Sometimes a prewar Stanley or Record in good condition slip by without anyone noticing and that's your chance to get a bargain. In the last year or so I have bought two pre WWII Stanleys quite cheaply. One of them a type-12 No. 4 1/2 and the other an unknown-type No. 7 with a low knob (possibly assembled from parts from different types). Both are excellent. Personally I like the type 12 better because of its high knob. Much more natural grip.

 

[bridger]

"Most of the planes you have highlighted can with some worm be made into good planes. However, all of them will require a new blade to make them really good as a final finishing plane where you are looking at really good edge retention."


All of my planes have vintage blades on them. They work fine.

 

[jimi43]

"Most of the planes you have highlighted can with some worm be made into good planes. However, all of them will require a new blade to make them really good as a final finishing plane where you are looking at really good edge retention."


All of my planes have vintage blades on them. They work fine.

Indeed...and I would go so far as saying that I would suggest taking out new stock irons and putting in good vintage ones!

Not sure how having worm will help though! :mrgreen: :wink:

(Dr Freud...DR FREUD!!!...get me my coat will you sir!? :mrgreen: )

Jimi