How come, we spend billions

[devonwoody]

And we dont seem to be able to wipe out a few pirates off Somalia.

Someone needs the sack.

 

[Max Power]

Great that that couple have been released DW but apparently they were warned not to go there immediately before they went there :roll:

 

[wobblycogs]

I asked the same question so I went and looked it up. Basically it's because very few English registered ships are captured (the story in the news being a rare exception) and for the most part the pirates are operating in sovereign waters so attacking them without very good cause, for example while they are actually trying to capture a ship, could be considered an act of war.

No one in shipping who wants to make a profit has their ship registered in the UK so we don't really care if it gets taken. The cargo that is being ransomed is still owned by the manufacturer who is a far eastern company so again we don't care. We could sail down there and stop it but it really isn't our problem and without international backing we could end up looking after big chunks of Somalia on our own.

To further fuel our apathy to the situation only a tiny percentage of ships sailing in those very busy waters are actually captured and normally a ransom is paid promptly (brokered in London would you believe) by the cargo owners and the ship allowed on it's way.

 

[cambournepete]

...normally a ransom is paid promptly ...

?
But doesn't that perpetuate the problem?
If the ransom wasn't paid they'd stop pirating (?) as it didn't pay...

 

[wobblycogs]

If they didn't pay the ransom the crew would likely be killed and the cargo kept and replacing the cargo costs a lot more than paying the ransom. As I understand it the shipping companies see it as just another cost of business. I believe they even insure against it, I think this is the company that does most of the insurance: http://www.jltgroup.com/.

Of course over time the ransoms have started to go up and more people are getting involved in piracy as it's seen to be lucrative but at the moment it's still a comparatively small problem. The attacking of a small yacht was out of the ordinary which combined with the fact it was Brittons was probably why it made the news. I'm sure we (as in the international community) will tackle the problem eventually but I think it'll have to get quite a bit worse before we do.

 

[big soft moose]

its not that we cant , it the fact that the politicians dont have the cojones - from a military perspective it would be a realtively simple proposition for any first world country to find out where they are and either bomb it flat or attack and over run it with a special forces raid

but there would be political **** to pay in the UN with whichever country did it being accused of imperialism, and being accused of war crimesover the inevitable collateral damage

there would also be the issue of reprisals by associated groups of piratres against unarmed shipping, and thus the need to keep a naval presence off somalia when the manpower is needed elsewhere

 

[wobblycogs]

I'm not even sure it's that they don't have the guts for the fight. After all we didn't hesitate on going into Iraq and Afghanistan both of which are undoubtedly tougher than Somalia and (insert other pirate hide outs here).

I suspect the real reason is that they having nothing we want (money/oil/political kudos) and therefore there is little to be gained. What Somalia really needs to do is claim to be harbouring terrorists or WMDs and discover a huge oil reserve right next to a diamond field, that would get it invaded and stabilized in no time flat.

 

[samharber]

It doesn't help that our navy is woefully ill suited to this sort of police action. We have a lot of ludicrously expensive Destroyers that can't do the job they're supposed to (missile systems still not working, and no carriers to protect anyway) doing a job they were never designed for.

 

[Blister]

O yes they DO

:lol:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_9TCyKNyjI

 

[big soft moose]

It doesn't help that our navy is woefully ill suited to this sort of police action. We have a lot of ludicrously expensive Destroyers that can't do the job they're supposed to (missile systems still not working, and no carriers to protect anyway) doing a job they were never designed for.

too true - also it doesnt help that its seen as a police action in which the pirates rights have to be respected.

in the 18/19 Century when we were dealing with piracy in the caribean sea any naval captain (british, french, spanish or dutch - the four powers at the time, and also later american) could try and hang pirates as a summary execution - Pirate vessels could also be fired upon without warning

Applied to the modern day , its a shame that in the clip blister posted the pirates were taken off and released before the vesel was blown up.

 

[devonwoody]

Think, all the Somalians could then claim political asylum because they are being attacked by a foreign power. I suppose the Airlines could do great business then with charter flights to Stanstead etc.

Perhaps it is better for people to sail the long way round.

 

[samharber]

Being a wooly liberal lefty, I'm appalled by the concept of summary justice by the military, and if you seriously mean what you said, then you should be ashamed of yourself.

If we've gotten one thing right over the last few centuries, it's the application of the rule of law to all and the recognition that human rightsmust always be respected. In this case, the right to not have your ship blown up while you're on board and left to drown.

 

[big soft moose]

If we've gotten one thing right over the last few centuries, it's the application of the rule of law to all and the recognition that human rightsmust always be respected. In this case, the right to not have your ship blown up while you're on board and left to drown.

what about the right not to be kidnapped and have your boat and possesions stolen and sold ?

All that is required is for this to be seen as a military action rather than a police one - in time of war boats are regularly blown up and the occupants are left to drown.

to my mind if one doesnt want to run the risks of being a pirate the solution is simple - dont be a pirate. If they choose piracy as an option then they accept the risks that go with it.

 

[wobblycogs]

While I fully support the idea that everyone has human rights and they should be tried if possible these pirates are often carrying weaponry that can take out armoured vehicles and I don't doubt for one moment they would use them if provoked. If the navy catch them in the act they should offer them the chance to surrender and if they don't comply immediately they should just blow them out the water. It's easy to forget that the military personnel have the right not to get killed too and they are hard the aggressors in this situation.

On another note though. Was I the only one that was disappointed with the accuracy of that dirty great automatic cannon they had? Looked to me like the vast majority of the rounds missed the target by a country mile.

 

[samharber]

Piracy is wrong as well, no doubt about it, but I still fail to see a need to debase our own humanity just because some other people are complete cock ends.

 

[Noel]

Like a lot of "issues" that are posted here there's no shortage of outrage, condemnation and the usual tabloid style "hang 'em high" comments. Piracy off the Somalian coast of course should be condemned but we should look further and try to understand why it's happening. Why the Somali fishing industry has been destroyed by illegal dumping of toxic waste from other countries and the over fishing of sovereign waters by foreign trawlers and factory ships thus depriving the once large local fishing industry of income.
Granted, the lack of an effective government makes it a lot easier for European and Asian ships to plunder the seas and dump waste with impunity. Not to mention the UN sponsored African peacekeeping force that doesn't really seem to be achieving much amongst the warring factions in the south of the country.
Like most conflicts around the world addressing the heart of the problem rather than the symptoms will, in the long run, improve the situation.
It's unlikely Somalian piracy will ever be defeated, especially now that it's seen as an extra expense for the shipping and insurance companies and is proving lucrative to the hijackers but pressing for and achieving some modicum of normality, a working government and the means to protect it's coastal waters might go some way to reducing the problem of piracy.

 

[Anonymous]

I see this as being a long drawn out thread again!!

Biggest problem with today is; crime does pay.

 

[wobblycogs]

I agree but...

It is quite easy to imagine a situation in which a navy captain is placed in the position of having to decide whether to shoot first or risk the lives of his crew trying to take a gang of hostile, armed, pirates prisoner.

Lets say, for example, that they have tracked down a gang that is known to begin firing as soon as they are approached and have killed people in the past escaping capture. While I wouldn't enjoy giving the order in this situation I wouldn't hesitate to have their boat sunk to save the lives of my men.

The question you need to ask yourself is what price is worth paying to bring the pirates in this example to trial? Perhaps the navy are extra good at capturing these pirates and there's only a 10% chance of a friendly getting killed. Is that an acceptable risk? What about if it cost the life of a single crewman? What about 10 lives or a 100 if they manage to sink the navy vessel? If your answer is no lives then really you only have the option of letting the pirates go about their business as there is always a risk that something will go badly wrong.

Personally, I think our currently policies are fairly good. We try as hard as we can not to blow pirates out of the water but reserve it as an option if it's needed.

 

[pren]

Ross kemp did a 3 part series on these modern day pirates. It was really interesting. Ep 1 was spent on board a RN warship that patrolled the shipping lanes off the coast of Somalia. Ep 2 was spend with a group if these pirates. Ep 3 was spent looking at the reasons behind the rise in piracy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaBqHyPu9II

 

[devonwoody]

Thanks Noel for that post explaining the problem that exists in the waters of that area.

We have a problem down here in Devon very similar, oil and waste on our beaches and over fishing in the past, however we have not yet succumbed to piracy to solve the problem.