How can I order wood which won't warp?

[Lefley]

I did not read all comments so this could be a duplicate. Wood will always move. Even if I kilNed dried , planed it, etc to perfectly flat wood. Then sold it to someone in the next town. My shop might be a perfect humidity to keep wood from moving. It now goes to someone else's house or shop that has a slightly different humidity or it goes from summer to winter, the wood will collect or lose moisture unless used and sealed immediately. It will then warp. All wood will.some species less than others. look how people make solid wood doors. It's never one big pice of wood it's bits and pieces put together miteculously then sealed up right away. All 6 sides. Even when we buy 10,000$ solid wood door Systems. When it is delivered. It has a caveat that if not sealed all 6 sides within 4 weeks it will not be warranty. The first thing the door company does is remove the door to check top and bottom for proper urethane application. That way their door leaves the factory in winter or summer and is sealed within weeks. Some doors companies will only ship an expensive door that they have pre sealed it. Wood moves no matter what.
I've even bought perfect straight wood. Then ripped it down the middle. The stresses contained in the wood released and the two pieces bowed like s**t.

 

[mrodent]

if not sealed all 6 sides within 4 weeks it will not be warranty. The first thing the door company does is remove the door to check top and bottom for proper urethane application. That way their door leaves the factory in winter or summer and is sealed within weeks. Some doors companies will only ship an expensive door that they have pre sealed it. Wood moves no matter what.
I've even bought perfect straight wood. Then ripped it down the middle. The stresses contained in the wood released and the two pieces bowed like s**t.

Thanks. In one of my previous posts in this thread I was asking about whether sealing the wood with some product was part of the answer to the puzzle. Top-end doors look so perfect these days perhaps the tendency is just to forget about all this care and concern and "wood knowledge" behind the end result!

 

[sometimewoodworker]

As @fleyh so beautifully put it all wood moves with humidity changes, the cheaper the board the more likely that I will not be sawn to reduce the way the movement will effect the board ie flat sawn.
Quarter sawn will move the least but will be quite a bit more expensive as the amount of material produced is much less and the work to produce is greater.

Get beautiful cathedral patterns on the boards, get cupping, get wonderful swirly grain, get boards that will twist, get wood from a tree that has grown on the outside of a plantation, get more movement. some boards move more than others. Mostly you won’t know if a board is going to be stable until it becomes a piece of furniture. The design of furniture will reduce the cupping and twisting, but get a board that is going to move to much and you probably need to replace it.

 

[Lefley]

Thanks. In one of my previous posts in this thread I was asking about whether sealing the wood with some product was part of the answer to the puzzle. Top-end doors look so perfect these days perhaps the tendency is just to forget about all this care and concern and "wood knowledge" behind the end result!

I think sealing the wood fast is the most important part.
also when I was at the door factory. Every piece of wood is meticulously sorted looked at and picked for each door. Been a carpenter for 40;years and was gobsmacked in the care in making these high end doors.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

Can I just clarify what you're saying here?

You got your timbers delivered... and then did you acclimatise them in your home for a few days/weeks? I mean, before you assembled things, cutting your housing joints?

You kept it "in stick" when not working on it: you mean you put weights on the boards as they were lying horizontally on the ground?

As a matter of interest, did you use something like plywood for the backboard (if there was one)?

You will find that good woodworkers will cut joints then virtually immediately assemble them. the shorter time between cutting the pieces and fitting them the more likely everything will fit perfectly. Even cutting in the evening and fitting next morning can be problematic.

 

[Lefley]

I think sealing the wood fast is the most important part.

You will find that good woodworkers will cut joints then virtually immediately assemble them. the shorter time between cutting the pieces and fitting them the more likely everything will fit perfectly. Even cutting in the evening and fitting next morning can be problematic.

We do this all the time when timber framing. I've cut joints then went for lunch came back and damn thing moved! It happens fast. But these days there is no 8x8 Timbers that are so called dry. That would take 10 years.

 

[thetyreman]

Can I just clarify what you're saying here?

You got your timbers delivered... and then did you acclimatise them in your home for a few days/weeks? I mean, before you assembled things, cutting your housing joints?

You kept it "in stick" when not working on it: you mean you put weights on the boards as they were lying horizontally on the ground?

As a matter of interest, did you use something like plywood for the backboard (if there was one)?

yes I went to the timber yard to hand select pieces of PAR redwood pine, I did all the joinery in a single day, so that's 10 joints all using hand tools, roughly 20 minutes each joint, by 'in stick' I mean where you stack the timber up using 19 x 19mm cleats and on the top piece you put weights on it this helps prevent it from moving any further, this was after hand planing it all, I didn't use any plywood because in this case it doesn't need it, but if I was going to put a back on it I'd use nailed shiplap pine instead as I prefer the way it looks and it allows for proper movement which is very important in solid wood pieces of furniture. And yes I let it acclimatise about 1-2 months in the actual room it was going in, hope that helps.

 

[thetyreman]

You will find that good woodworkers will cut joints then virtually immediately assemble them. the shorter time between cutting the pieces and fitting them the more likely everything will fit perfectly. Even cutting in the evening and fitting next morning can be problematic.

yes I've found the same thing, leaving it overnight it often warps a bit the next day when you come back

 

[Agent_zed]

I dont think it happens so much with dry wood but I've had fresh sawn board start to cup due to being on the ground. The top or bottom dries out faster depending if the air is dry above or the ground is dry/warm and absorbs moisture both causing movement. I flipped them over and they moved back straight. If you get direct sunlight on it it will cup really quickly. had to keep flip flopping them to keep them equal. Just something to be aware of if you plonk them down somewhere and expect to come back to nice straight board.

 

[niall Y]

All wood moves. The answer is to buy more than you need. When buying sawn stock for for a job , the rule of thumb is to buy 1/3 extra - with waney edge it's up to a 1/2 extra. But even with ready planed stock it's still best to buy a tad more than you need.

The best way to buy PAR Redwood, is to go to the woodyard and select it yourself - at least then you are starting out with straight stock. If, for instance I am buying PAR Redwood for a ledged and braced door and I need 5 wide boards, then I will buy 6 just to be on the safe side,

The standard exchange at my local woodyard often involves me saying ." I don't want it cupped, I don't want it bent, I don't want it twisted, and............... I don't want any knots in it" No knots is unrealistic, but the stock should be fit for it's intended purpose. It often pays to tell them what you need it for, so they don't think you are being a 'Prima Donna " In my own case there are often times when I don't have to be so fussy.

 

[mrodent]

All wood moves. The answer is to buy more than you need. When buying sawn stock for for a job , the rule of thumb is to buy 1/3 extra - with waney edge it's up to a 1/2 extra. But even with ready planed stock it's still best to buy a tad more than you need.

The best way to buy PAR Redwood, is to go to the woodyard and select it yourself - at least then you are starting out with straight stock. If, for instance I am buying PAR Redwood for a ledged and braced door and I need 5 wide boards, then I will buy 6 just to be on the safe side,

The standard exchange at my local woodyard often involves me saying ." I don't want it cupped, I don't want it bent, I don't want it twisted, and............... I don't want any knots in it" No knots is unrealistic, but the stock should be fit for it's intended purpose. It often pays to tell them what you need it for, so they don't think you are being a 'Prima Donna " In my own case there are often times when I don't have to be so fussy.

1/3 ... or even 1/2. Wow. So if I understand you correctly, you're saying that even when buying planed (e.g. PAR) wood... and even when you've personally selected it from the woodyard, you would expect to have to plane it (manually or by machine) before actually using it for your project? I.e. after it has acclimatised after several weeks, and developed some bends/twists/warps/cups (or all of the above)?

This is where it gets complicated for me: planing all the various solid wood boards for a given project to the *same* thickness (more or less) would strike me as a daunting task. But planing even just one board is hardly trivial, specially for a DIY level person. No doubt if you have a suitable jointer/planer machine (and are not terrified of it, as I would be) this must speed up the task.

A couple of posts up from here thetyreman described how he uses cleats and weights on his newly delivered timber to deliberately and physically *oppose* the wood's tendency to warp as it acclimatises. He seems to do this without even trying to seal the wood. For someone of my very low level I think I'd like to try that, rather than attempting to plane off a significant proportion of the thickness.

NB I just read an interesting thing which suggests that moisture mainly enters wood from the (sawn) ends... so perhaps just applying a suitable sealing product just to the ends, on delivery of solid timber, might be a good idea?

 

[sawdustandwax]

use this (or similar) to make a bookcase oak so you can get on and build.
get a moisture meter and a digital thermometer with a humidity readout, buy a few of pieces of solid timber locally. The wood in your home will be <6% and much less in the warmer rooms, compare to the bought timber, store some of it in a shed, some inside, ideally where the bookcase will go. Note the movement, change in moisture content and humidity levels.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

The wood in your home will be <6% and much less in the warmer rooms, compare to the bought timber, store some of it in a shed, some inside, ideally where the bookcase will go. Note the movement, change in moisture content and humidity levels.

I suspect your estimation of <6% being wood's MC is probably a little on the low side for wood in habitable buildings during any season in a year, certainly here in the UK. This would suggest an average atmospheric relative humidity (RH) of something under 40%. Internal RH figures for winter's January/February months in most UK habitable buildings (houses) tend to sit somewhere between 40 - 50%RH leading to wood moving towards an MC of ~8 - 9%. Summer RH numbers, around August/ September, again in UK habitable buildings tend to be in the area of 60 - 65%. 60 - 65%RH sees wood moving towards ~12 - 12.5% MC.

Typically, therefore, most wooden furniture in typical UK houses generally fluctuates between approximately ±8.5% (late winter) to ±12%MC (late summer). Of course, there can be divergences from these numbers caused by a variety of factors, e.g., the local climate, type of house, energy efficiency (double glazing, insulation, etc), climate control, and so on. Slainte.

 

[raffo]

Design your

How can I increase the chances of ordering non-warping, non-twisting wood for my little project?

Wood will always move in one way or another. The desing of your project can take advantage of the many methods to minimize or accomodate movement, for example frame and panel construction. You can mitigate movement of your shelves if you house them and/or apply nosing to the edges. Nosed plywood is not a bad option either.

 

[johnnyb]

obviously it's a basic to be able to make wood flat and square at any size. but some timber is much more stable than others. some doesn't really move wet or dry. with that in mind sorting straight lengths is also a basic. so short bits are made from bent stock. straight lengths are picked out for the longest bits. that's the same with wood plywood.

 

[Lefley]

1/3 ... or even 1/2. Wow. So if I understand you correctly, you're saying that even when buying planed (e.g. PAR) wood... and even when you've personally selected it from the woodyard, you would expect to have to plane it (manually or by machine) before actually using it for your project? I.e. after it has acclimatised after several weeks, and developed some bends/twists/warps/cups (or all of the above)?

This is where it gets complicated for me: planing all the various solid wood boards for a given project to the *same* thickness (more or less) would strike me as a daunting task. But planing even just one board is hardly trivial, specially for a DIY level person. No doubt if you have a suitable jointer/planer machine (and are not terrified of it, as I would be) this must speed up the task.

A couple of posts up from here thetyreman described how he uses cleats and weights on his newly delivered timber to deliberately and physically *oppose* the wood's tendency to warp as it acclimatises. He seems to do this without even trying to seal the wood. For someone of my very low level I think I'd like to try that, rather than attempting to plane off a significant proportion of the thickness.

NB I just read an interesting thing which suggests that moisture mainly enters wood from the (sawn) ends... so perhaps just applying a suitable sealing product just to the ends, on delivery of solid timber, might be a good idea?

Yes think of wood as a bundle of straws with the end grain the end of the straw. Very difficult for water to enter the side of a straw. Very easy to enter the end of the straw. So if you seal end grain immediately you have essentially stopped the majority of water or moisture entering the wood.

 

[Keith Cocker]

I’ve generally bought my PAR hardwood from G&S Timber in Penrith (their delivery charges are reasonable). Movement has only been slight.

 

[John Brown]

I used to live in Surrey, Champions and Alsfords will always be a safer bet than B&Q etc.
IMO

 

[Garden Shed Projects]

Had you considered using furniture board? Fairly cheap, readily available and shouldn’t warp much.
https://www.diy.com/departments/squ...sbi7_IPrhlO5Xc5yMT4aAlqlEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

[mrodent]

Had you considered using furniture board? Fairly cheap, readily available and shouldn’t warp much.
https://www.diy.com/departments/squ...sbi7_IPrhlO5Xc5yMT4aAlqlEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

Thanks... an earlier post in fact suggested B&Q oak boards... but in fact the site says this about all these boards: "Treatment is required to prevent warping and bowing, if left untreated timber will silver with age and move to create a different character". What's your experience been with these B&Q boards?

That question of treating wood to help reduce warping has also been discussed earlier in this thread.

Also, in the post before yours John Brown says he reckons a dedicated wood supplier, like Champions, will probably be better. At the moment I'm inclining towards 12 mm birch ply with a "front facing" made of some solid wood. There's a Champions local to me.

Provisionally I've got the impression that the ideal of solid wood bookcases is somewhat problematic in 2023! I may also try making a small one in solid and see how viable/practical that is.