House name on a post…

[Woodypk]

The weather’s starting to pick up and I’ve been asked by the in-laws if I could produce for them a house sign by their front gates. Without thinking I agreed but now I’m not sure whether to use air dried or kiln dried oak. They’ve asked for oak specifically and they would like a name board connected to two posts. I’m sure you will have seen these types of signs before.

I’ve done some research and I can’t find a definitive answer on which I should use and why.

I’ve googled some companies that make these sorts of things as their main line of business and I’ve found that they use everything from green oak to kiln dried. One business even used a mixture of both air and kiln dried - using kiln dried for the name board and air dried for the post.

I’m pretty sure whatever I use I’m going to end up finishing it with danish oil as I’ve read that it should work well.

Something tells me that green oak isn’t required for what I’m looking to do and I’ve never worked with it before so I’d really like to count that out if I can get away with it. So now I can’t decide whether air dried or kiln dried would hold up best in UK weather.

What do you think? And what do you think would be the best way to protect the bottom of the post (since I’ll be fitting it for them).

Cheers.

 

[sams93]

Green oak will be cheapest but will shrink and move more than the others. If they are going for a rustic look then it would be appropriate.

Air dried will be closer to the normal 'outdoors' moisture levels maybe 14% as it has been left to dry outdoors. Regardless it will still move with the elements.

Kiln dried will be driest perhaps 7% - useful for things which will live inside in relatively stable conditions, will absorb more water as you put it outside.

If it is a modern style, I would choose air-dried. Whatever you choose, make sure your method of attaching the board to the posts allows for some movement and expansion accross the board, perhaps a long tenon with a single through dowel in the middle or something. No glueing it in place.

Oak directly buried into the soil will slowly degrade over perhaps 10 years or so.

I would be tempted to pour some postcrete and set in some angle iron or something to bolt the bottom of the posts to as far as fixing into the ground. You could then throw some woodchips or something over the postcrete and it would look nice. Wouldn't need a lot. This method means it would be easy to unbolt and move or take off for maintenance/refinishing etc, also you don't need to make the posts as long as you aren't loosing any underground.

If you didn't like that, you could make the posts with holes in the bottom to accept a stake and postcrete two stakes in the ground sticking out - someone could pick it up with this method though.

Alternatively, you could just set the wood into postcrete and it would be fine for ages.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Get someone with a trade account to get some proper creosote for the bottom of the post if you're burying it whether in concrete or not. If you concrete either put a bracket in to anchor the post to or fleet the concrete away from the post so water doesn't gather at the base.

 

[Cabinetman]

Yes air dried would be most appropriate, I’ve heard good reports about the plastic bag type of post protector, adds years to post life. Sorry I don’t know what they’re called.
Sorry granny and eggs, don’t use steel fittings or screws with Oak, particularly outdoors as it will go black reacting with the tannin.
Ian

 

[thetyreman]

air dried, I'd burn the bit that goes into the ground with a blowtorch, should help it last longer.

 

[Woodypk]

Thanks all for the input.

I’ll now have a think about the best way to attach the board to the posts. I was thinking a doweled mortice and tenon with a dowel as sams93 mentioned.

With this method, would it be wise to allow some expansion room in the height of the mortise (edge cheeks of the tenon) to allow the board and thus the tenon to expand and contract? And if so, how much for say, a 22-25mm thick x 150mm wide board? (Dimensions not finalised yet).

 

[shelmo]

I'd go with air dried

 

[sams93]

Thanks all for the input.

I’ll now have a think about the best way to attach the board to the posts. I was thinking a doweled mortice and tenon with a dowel as sams93 mentioned.

With this method, would it be wise to allow some expansion room in the height of the mortise (edge cheeks of the tenon) to allow the board and thus the tenon to expand and contract? And if so, how much for say, a 22-25mm thick x 150mm wide board? (Dimensions not finalised yet).

Yes I would do as you have said. I would make the mortise a tight fit as far as it's width is concerned, but for the height you would allow maybe 10mm at either end (which is probably seriously overkill) to allow for expansion and contraction. So you might make the mortise 110mm long but the tenon only 90mm. You would probably be fine with much less gap but if you overestimate it the world doesn't end but if there isn't enough room it will cause problems.

You could use more than one dowel if you wanted for design purposes, so long as the only one which is 'fixed' is the central one. The others would all need elongated slots in the tenon. EDIT - having dowels on the outer edges might be more faff than it is worth for a 90mm tenon, if you want that look you could just make some 'fake dowels' by drilling some shallow holes in your post where the dowels would go and putting some fake shallow ones there. Once you trim them flush they will just look the same as the actual central dowel.

You must avoid glue along the length of the tenon. In the diagram attached they suggest glueing the central dowel, however that is for an internal piece of furniture which will not swell as much as what you are making. I would not use any glue at all for what you are doing, if you make your dowels/drill the holes so they are a loose fit (no more than finger tight) in your shed/garage/workshop, once you take the thing outside and leave it for a month in the elements that dowel will expand and tighten itself into the gap!

This is exactly the same as how breadboard ends are made for table construction (https://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-tips/techniques/joinery/breadboard)

 

[Myfordman]

Look for a post protection product called postsaver.
I've used it recently and seems a sound idea - only time will tell how effective it is!

 

[Grandad455]

Look for a post protection product called postsaver.
I've used it recently and seems a sound idea - only time will tell how effective it is!

Very successfully planted a number of fence posts, using 2 methods. Wrap the bottom of the post on a black polyethylene bag, wrap it round with masking tape and pour 250ml of creosote into the bag and plant the post in that. Protects the post and keeps a layer of creosote around it, backfill with concrete to just above the top of the bag.
Secondly, if there is any chance of the post being lifted out of the ground, put 2 lengths of 10mm steel rod at an angle through the bottom of the post at right angles to each other, and concrete into the ground.

 

[Inspector]

Around here people bolt a plasma cut steel plate to a big boulder at the corner of the driveway. The signs may be just the family name and address number to more artistic wolves howling, bear with a salmon in their mouth etc. You could look into what is available locally for a plasma cut sign. Might be an alternative unless you have your heart set on carving one. Posts will still have to be placed.

Pete

 

[Woodypk]

This is exactly the same as how breadboard ends are made for table construction (https://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-tips/techniques/joinery/breadboard)

I saw this the other day and thought this looks like how I’ll probably do it.

Around here people bolt a plasma cut steel plate to a big boulder at the corner of the driveway. The signs may be just the family name and address number to more artistic wolves howling, bear with a salmon in their mouth etc. You could look into what is available locally for a plasma cut sign. Might be an alternative unless you have your heart set on carving one. Posts will still have to be placed.

Pete

They are more traditional people and they’re keen on using wood. Specifically oak. They want it to match the wooden plaque that they’ve got fitted on the wall next to the door.

I don’t mind though, they’ve looked after me a lot over the last year or so following redundancy and straight after a burglary in which I lost all of my tools and had to start again. It’s the absolute least I can do to (start to) pay them back right now.