House heating upgrade

[tibi]

Hello,

I would like to ask for some advice on the heating upgrade of the house. We have a 10-year-old house where there is electric underfloor heating (foils). Our house is relatively well insulated. I have paid for a thermal camera report and it shows no unusual heating leakage (there is some minor leakage, but I was told that it is like this on almost every house). We do not have gas available and it would be very expensive to dig the whole house to get water pipes under the floor.

We have an intelligent electricity reporting system that is provided by our electricity supplier, where I can see the consumption of the whole household every hour. I also get a monthly breakdown of consumption per appliance group (e.g. electrical heating, refrigerator, TV and Media, PC, lighting, etc.). 70 - 80 % of monthly consumption goes for electrical heating. We have 5 independent thermometers in every room. The underfloor heating has been checked by the company who installed it and they found no issues.

Our annual expense was 200 Eur/month last year. And the reporting system shows that for the same area, households with electrical underfloor heating pay on average 120 Eur/month. We do not overheat our rooms and I make sure that the thermometers are set appropriately.

I would like to buy electrical convection heaters instead of underfloor heating. My question is if they will heat the room faster and thus save money or I will pay even more?



Thank you.

 

[Agent_zed]

convection heaters will heat the room faster as they are just heating the air not the surrounding material. The problem with that though is that heat rises so you get a warm layer higher up. Underfloor heating obviously heats from the floor up so tends be a more uniform temperature. Also I find if my feet are warm I am warm so I don't necessisarily need the room to be that warm overall. I tend to keep my house at 18c (I have UFH using water though).

UFH will take longer to get the room to temperature but will remain there for longer as you have a big heatsink to slowly release heat. So I think it comes down to how you use the room. If you are working in there all day then ufh heating is probably better. If you are just going in there in the evening and want to put the heating on for a few hours then I reckon a convection heater will be better.

Not sure of the prices in Slovakia but they are pretty cheap here so would be easy enough to give it a go in one room and see how well it works.

 

[tibi]

convection heaters will heat the room faster as they are just heating the air not the surrounding material. The problem with that though is that heat rises so you get a warm layer higher up. Underfloor heating obviously heats from the floor up so tends be a more uniform temperature. Also I find if my feet are warm I am warm so I don't necessisarily need the room to be that warm overall. I tend to keep my house at 18c (I have UFH using water though).

UFH will take longer to get the room to temperature but will remain there for longer as you have a big heatsink to slowly release heat. So I think it comes down to how you use the room. If you are working in there all day then ufh heating is probably better. If you are just going in there in the evening and want to put the heating on for a few hours then I reckon a convection heater will be better.

Not sure of the prices in Slovakia but they are pretty cheap here so would be easy enough to give it a go in one room and see how well it works.

Thank you very much.

I am also considering infrared heating panels. They consume less energy, but they need to be hung as a picture frame on the wall. They also do not heat air, but only surrounding objects and humans (whatever that may mean), I cannot imagine coming into an ice-cold room, where I will just feel warm after a while.

The disadvantage I see is that they are over 110°C hot and if someone accidentally touches them, it might hurt ( I have a 3-year-old son). Also they do not heat a large area. They can be bought as a art frame. But I have 50m2 kitchen and living room as an open space, so I would have to buy 5 of them.

 

[eribaMotters]

Tibi, you say the "house is relatively well insulated". How much insulation do you have in your loft. In our previous two houses the energy bills nearly halved when we upped the loft insulation to around 340mm.

Colin

 

[Jameshow]

Thank you very much.

I am also considering infrared heating panels. They consume less energy, but they need to be hung as a picture frame on the wall. They also do not heat air, but only surrounding objects and humans (whatever that may mean), I cannot imagine coming into an ice-cold room, where I will just feel warm after a while.

The disadvantage I see is that they are over 110°C hot and if someone accidentally touches them, it might hurt ( I have a 3-year-old son). Also they do not heat a large area. They can be bought as a art frame. But I have 50m2 kitchen and living room as an open space, so I would have to buy 5 of them.
View attachment 149159

We have these at our men's shed and they aren't very effective unless your right in front of them. Having said that once we get bodies in the room it soon warms up!

 

[Jameshow]

Also does anyone have any safe electrical heaters ideals for which sawdust us present??

 

[Dibs-h]

Our annual expense was 200 Eur/month last year. And the reporting system shows that for the same area, households with electrical underfloor heating pay on average 120 Eur/month. We do not overheat our rooms and I make sure that the thermometers are set appropriately.

Thank you.

I'd be seriously tempted to ask your neighbours (assuming their houses are identical) - what their electricity usage\patterns\costs are. That is someone who's paying 120Eur/month.

The other bit - I know you set the thermometers appropriately - but does "someone" else set them differently when you aren't home?

 

[Dibs-h]

Also does anyone have any safe electrical heaters ideals for which sawdust us present??

Oil filled electric rads?

 

[Amateur]

My advice is this.
The more options you have the better to heat your home.
Although you don't have gas you should explore the oil fired central heating systems.
Worcester manufacture the best combi type boilers. They provide full yearly services and breakdown cover.
They are really efficient and you can top up your tank when prices fall during the summer usually.
To compliment this take a look at a balanced flu propane gas fire.
Gazco are again one of the best gas fires you can find. Made in the UK. They have a small interior box that make them very efficient and have their own factory trained engineers to service the appliances every year.
So now you have some options.
I could go into more detail but you must do your own research.
But please don't think oil or propane are a silly ideas or overly expensive to run.
Many people in areas without gas using this combination and only warming rooms as required, sometimes not even using the central heating, in areas of Scotland have used it for many years.

 

[clogs]

Tibi,
heating oil here was over €,140 per liter the last time I looked......
LPG/propane was €1,20 p/l....
just to give u an idea.....

here, most burn wood, typically Olive.....now €160,00 per ton, cut to 35cm and delivered.........
we have a wood boiler for heating n hot water when the sun dont shine....norm, solar heated water.....
In the past I fitted a wood stove in the main room and run pipes and radiators off it.......
didn't ever use elec for heating again....

 

[clogs]

oh,
it's only me n the wife, both very frugal
we only use electric for lights, everything LED, TV and comps.....cooking totally gas/propane.....
I know it's relative but our last bill was almost €400 for 2 months......
the swimming pool is now empty.......so no pumps....

 

[Agent_zed]

My advice is this.
The more options you have the better to heat your home.
Although you don't have gas you should explore the oil fired central heating systems.
Worcester manufacture the best combi type boilers. They provide full yearly services and breakdown cover.
They are really efficient and you can top up your tank when prices fall during the summer usually.
To compliment this take a look at a balanced flu propane gas fire.
Gazco are again one of the best gas fires you can find. Made in the UK. They have a small interior box that make them very efficient and have their own factory trained engineers to service the appliances every year.
So now you have some options.
I could go into more detail but you must do your own research.
But please don't think oil or propane are a silly ideas or overly expensive to run.
Many people in areas without gas using this combination and only warming rooms as required, sometimes not even using the central heating, in areas of Scotland have used it for many years.

The OP is in Slovakia so would have to check those options and warranties are available. Might also be local rules.

On top of that in the UK that would probably be at a guess £5-10k install, which is a pretty big investment and would require installing radiators, the boiler and a large tank somewhere accessible.

I'd put money into insulation and heat recovery if possible

 

[Jorny]

An air-air heatpump?

 

[clogs]

Jorny,
they have a bad reputation this way......
that and ground source heating........unless it 500meters into the ground.....

or just move to a warmer climate.....lol.....

 

[Jorny]

Jorny,
they have a bad reputation this way......
that and ground source heating........unless it 500meters into the ground.....

or just move to a warmer climate.....lol....

They seem to work fine up here. Most new singel family housing use grund source heat pumps up here. The temperature is now -15, up from -22 this morning.

 

[tibi]

Tibi, you say the "house is relatively well insulated". How much insulation do you have in your loft. In our previous two houses the energy bills nearly halved when we upped the loft insulation to around 340mm.

Colin

I have a bungalow house. Loft is uninsulated, but the ground floor is insulated like a box, so the ceiling is insulated. The insulation is 200 mm PUR sandwich panel all around the house. From the outside, there is also some polystyrene (I do not remember the thickness)

 

[tibi]

My advice is this.
The more options you have the better to heat your home.
Although you don't have gas you should explore the oil fired central heating systems.
Worcester manufacture the best combi type boilers. They provide full yearly services and breakdown cover.
They are really efficient and you can top up your tank when prices fall during the summer usually.
To compliment this take a look at a balanced flu propane gas fire.
Gazco are again one of the best gas fires you can find. Made in the UK. They have a small interior box that make them very efficient and have their own factory trained engineers to service the appliances every year.
So now you have some options.
I could go into more detail but you must do your own research.
But please don't think oil or propane are a silly ideas or overly expensive to run.
Many people in areas without gas using this combination and only warming rooms as required, sometimes not even using the central heating, in areas of Scotland have used it for many years.

I also have a fireplace insert. It brings heat into living room and kitchen area as well as master bedroom. I have bathroom and another room, that are not covered by the fireplace insert.

However, this insert heats most of the house but does not keep the heat after the fire stops for too long. My other option is to buy / build masonry stove (tile stove).
The cheaper option is to buy a smaller shop-made unit and the more expensive option is to have the masonry stove built (hopefully by an expert builder). Then I would need to make vents into all the rooms over the ceiling (as the loft is not usable and pipes can go above the ceiling ( maybe with some artificial ventilator)

 

[eribaMotters]

Tibi, I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that above your ceilings you have no insulation.
The quickest and cheapest way to reduce heating bills is with insulation.

Colin

 

[tibi]

Tibi, I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that above your ceilings you have no insulation.
The quickest and cheapest way to reduce heating bills is with insulation.

Colin

No,

My house has a gable roof. I have my ground floor fully insulated ( floor + exterior walls + ceiling). Its insulated from all sides. Above that, there is a loft, which can be only accessed through a roof manhole. There are no other windows. There is OSB floor on a part of the ceiling (which can be walked on), and the rest of the loft cannot be walked on. There is no insulation between the loft and the roof.

Green lines are insulated, white lines are not insulated. Loft area is only accessible from the manhole on the roof. House is built from 2mm bent sheet metal U profiles with all the required braces, PUR panel insulation, OSB boards inside and outside and polystyrene insulation on the outside.

 

[D_W]

The radiant heaters will eventually heat the room, too. they just heat you before heating the air like a convection heater.

Think of it this way - if a radiant heater is outputting a kilowatt, but there's no person in the room, the energy goes somewhere - eventually it may be that objects are unevenly heated if they receive the radiant energy but as they get warmed, the air around them will be warmed, too.

As far as the costs go, I wonder if:
1) the 120 target isn't a little idealistic
2) if it includes respondents heating less square footage than you are. Not as a matter of building size, but as a matter of not heating the entire house to comfortable

You may be hoping to achieve efficiency that isn't efficiency, but rather lower average house temp when including unheated areas. Or that isn't properly compiled or expressed by the system.

I've always been stingy on heat and air. Last year, our A/C is finally running out of charge on an outdated refrigerant. One month, our A/C bill (hotter than normal, too) reached $250 above normal electrical consumption. This as a month with a lot of 90s F and I have a spouse who is unbending and who also decided it should be colder than normal.

this spring, I will replace the A/C with something more efficient as it's 40 years old now, but when I polled neighbors with similar size cooled area (2000SF cooled), they returned figures a lot more like my "bad year" than typical.