Horizon and losing weight

[Steve Maskery]

Whilst I can't argue with that last point, it seems that it is rather more complex than that.
Gill is right in that the thrust of he Horizon program was not the weight loss per se, but the other health benefits that come with it, like lower blood sugar and lower blood pressure. But those benefit were the result of not carrying around so much weight.
In one of the of the experiments, they found, to their surprise, that it didn't matter whether you were on a low-fat diet or a high-fat one, on your feeding days, just as long as you had the 600cal days in between. So there we have two people with very different weekly calorie counts, but benefiting in the same way. No, I don't understand it either, but that's what they found.
I'm fasting today and fancy something different. Gill, where did you find that beef in oyster sauce recipe?
S

 

[Gill]

I devised that recipe myself, Steve . It was difficult to find recipes aimed specifically at 5:2 dieters, so I thought I'd see what I could do and it turned out to my satisfaction. I've got an email address for you (I hope it's current :? ) so I'll send you a copy.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

Don't forget the body is a complex machine, I have often wondered if by excluding certain food groups it's possible that you leave your body unable to extract all the useful energy from what you eat. .

Having said that unless I see some really strong evidence indicating that's true I'm sticking with thinking that all diets work because you put less energy in than you use.

The first has been shown to be true if you substitute nutrition for energy. There have been recent studies that show that if you eat lettuce or salad without a dressing you get far less of the nutrition available than if you put in our dressing on it. So it's quite conceivable that you will get less energy in the same sort of way.

The second, although very simplistic, is also probably true however the available energy does vary depending on the kind of food you are eating. Carbohydrates and sugars have been shown to be the easiest to digest and get the energy from.

There appears to be evidence to show that insulin as well as assisting in the digestions of carbohydrates also resists fat being extracted from the body cells. Indeed with higher levels of insulin fats are stored in the body cells and the body will preferentially use carbohydrates for its energy source. If you think about it it makes a lot of sense because we used to store body fat when I was a surplus of food and when there were starvation situations or too little food the carbohydrate intake would drastically reduce the insulin levels would go down and then we were able to use the fat from our body cells.

 

[JakeS]

With your "diet", for weight loss to be taking place - you must be in a calorie deficit. I can't see you being in a calorie surplus and loosing weight.

It's perfectly possible to be taking in more than the recommended GDA of calories every day and still be malnourished, depending on what you're eating - which may well mean you start losing weight.

It's also possible to get the same calorific intake through vastly different weights of food - 1000 kcal of Kendal mint cake is significantly lighter than 1000 kcal of cheese, would it still make you weigh equally more all else being equal? Where would the extra mass come from?



I don't disagree that generally speaking, eating less => losing weight... but it's a damn sight more complicated than a simple count of calories-in versus calories-used.

 

[wobblycogs]

At it's most basic this must hold true: if calories eaten is less than calories used the difference will be made up by processing some of the bodies energy stores. If that statement isn't true then you must be able to generate energy from some other source. Since no human that I know of can photosynthesize or comes equipped with an Iron-Man style generator built in I'm confident in saying that you'll lose weight if you eat sufficiently small amounts.

Note though that does not preclude weight loss in the case where calories eaten is equal to or greater than calories used but some other factor must be at play. For example if a certain combination of foods prevents good energy absorption then you could still potentially lose weight. I think it's highly unlikely that any such effect would be very strong in a healthy individual though as nature would quickly select against such a failure of the digestive system.

How much you'd weigh after eating kendal mint cake or cheese is an interesting but I feel somewhat flawed question. Lets assume that the person has fasted before and expelled any waste products after. My guess is they may not weigh the same but not because of the weight of the things they ate but because of the way the body dealt with what they ate. The cake is sugar which is easy to process directly, the cheese is fat which is harder to process. In the case of the cheese only diet the body may preferentially choose to consume it's glycogen store rather than process the fat in the cheese which could cause a weight loss. The problem with the experiment though is that it doesn't represent a real diet. Over the longer term the body would exhaust it's glycogen store and be forced to start processing the fat. The end result (apart from malnutrition) would probably be the same body weight give or take a little.

 

[graduate_owner]

Hi everybody,
and well done those of you who are taking inches off your waists!!

To everyone else - you could do what a friend of mine did. Get a fridge magnet that says:

'I really try to lose weight, but it keeps finding me again'.

It won't help the BMI but it may put a smile on.

K

 

[doctor Bob]

or

"in everybody there is a thin person fighting to get out, but he/she can be subdued with a bit of chocolate cake"

 

[Cegidfa]

Diet is die with a 't'.... :shock:

Diane and I watched the three programmes by Dr Mosely, and very thought provoking they were.

I being of a pragmatic nature came up with the following thought, based on films and pictures seen over the years.

No fat people came out of a prisoner of war camp - after WW2. :shock:

The answer would seem to be simple - don't use a diet, because at some point it will end, and they generally aren't much fun. And if they are so efficient why are there so many?
We just slowly reduced our intake ... permanently. We still enjoy good food, and even eat cake, but the portion size is a lot less than it was.
Alcohol is another problem area where many calories can creep in. By reducing intake of food and alcohol, Diane has lost two stone in just under a year

However, saying is one thing, sticking to it is another. The big problem now is that we can't actually finish a restaurant meal as they are far too large

Regards...Dick....whose waist is over two inches smaller than it was...and I don't feel ravenous.

 

[Steve Maskery]

You can afford to go to restaurants? Wow, there's posh. I've not been to a res since I can't remember when, and I used to go once or twice a month. Heigh ho.

I've lost 1st 2lb as of this morning. I need to lose at least another stone, but it's getting much slower as the weeks go by. I'm sure it must be easier if there are at least two of you. Cooking for one is difficult anyway, let alone if you are trying to create specialist meals of any kind. I love cooking, so I want interesting, varied meals. It's hard.
My fave is seafood spaghetti. With a small portion of spag and a good handful of varied seafood (king prawns, squid, mussels), with half a red chilli and a small drizzle of the best olive oil, I can have a quite delicious dinner for under 300 calories. But even I don't want that every day.

I have a friend I used to see every day. He was a bon viveur and enjoyed cooking as much as I do. I saw him last week, thin and skinny and with no appetite. Just old really. It was not a happy sight. here must be a happy medium.
S

 

[Cegidfa]

Hi Steve,

Well done on the weight loss. Don’t worry about the slowing down; think of it in a proportionate way. The last half stone is never going to fall off like the first stone did.

The biggest barrier is tuning the mind to think that a small meal is an adequate meal.
We found that if done slowly but surely, the brain will accommodate and adjust accordingly.
This morning we went into Shrewsbury to collect tickets for a Gypsy jazz evening (in the coffee house) and had an excellent coffee. In the past I would have had a pastry of some kind (and they did look good)’ all I felt was ...I just don’t need one, so I didn’t....no cake envy ensued.

The other problem is a social one i.e. adjusting one’s friends to either think alike, or accept your decision to reduce your intake without the banter, which can get very waring. :evil:

Living where we do, that wouldn’t be restaurants ‘plural’ that would be nearest pub singular. The nearest restaurant would be a 30 mile round trip away down dark country lanes.

Whilst it is not appropriate to freeze everything, Diane often makes a larger batch and freezes it for later use. This makes it worth doing and saves time later as well.....err, food for thought.

As to your friend, what you think of now as ‘skinny with no appetite’ might just change to ‘slender and elegant’ when you cut a svelte figure yourself. It really is all about mindset.

As to a happy medium, try Doris Stokes..... Sorry, I couldn't resist it.

Best wishes.........Dick.

 

[Jacob]

Losing weight is dead easy - just eat less. What's the problem? Everybody knows this and everybody knows which things are best/worst in terms of fatness/health.
That's all there is to it.
Any questions?

 

[Steve Maskery]

Thank you, Jacob, I never realised it was so easy. The scales have fallen from my eyes and I am now an enlightened being.
S

 

[SBJ]

Thank you, Jacob, I never realised it was so easy. The scales have fallen from my eyes and I am now an enlightened being.
S

Jacob is right, you can dress it up anyway you like but dieting for weight loss revolves around one factor - reducing net calorie intake.

 

[doctor Bob]

I agree, every time someone says they cannot lose weight through calorie control it's because they are cheating either knowingly or unwittingly.
I have seen loads of programs where people can't lose weight on a calorie controlled diet, when followed by secret cameras their calorie intake is usually higher than they write down, due to portion size or lies.

Dieting is hard work, I am 12 weeks in to a vicious diet, it is not fun or likeable but there again I never expected it to be.

Good luck to everyone.

 

[Jacob]

.....
Dieting is hard work, I am 12 weeks in to a vicious diet, it is not fun or likeable but there again I never expected it to be.

....

Don't agree. No reason why it shouldn't be likeable. Just eat less food (especially fattening stuff) but make sure that what you do eat is tasty and good quality. Have a small fillet steak instead of a large sirloin, etc. etc.
There's a sort of hysteria about it - as though going into a coffee bar and not having a cake :roll: is a great personal achievement!
Ridiculous. Pull yourselves together, snap out of it!! Think of those African children who have discovered the secret of slimming. They are not struggling over not eating cakes.

PS feeling hungry several times a day is normal, but I think a lot of people have never experienced this.

 

[Jacob]

.......The big problem now is that we can't actually finish a restaurant meal as they are far too large ......

We got into the habit of asking for one meal and two plates, in certain eateries. Nobody minds, you just tell them that you are both on a diet.
We like fish n chips now and then. One normal portion of chips is enough for four people. Either share them or bin them. Sea gulls like them. And dump the batter. This can put you off the fish as it often turns out to be just grey slime, if you don't know your chippy! Greek chippies are good on fish in my experience.

PS Good restaurants often serve small but better quality meals - but you don't know this until you've tried it. This can mean that also having a starter and a pudding are not over the top (except the price) and you can squeeze in a few pints of beer afterwards!
Go up market for better food, spend the same (or a little more) but eat less.

 

[doctor Bob]

.....
Dieting is hard work, I am 12 weeks in to a vicious diet, it is not fun or likeable but there again I never expected it to be.

....

Don't agree. No reason why it shouldn't be likeable.

......... you have no idea of what I'm trying to achieve.

I need to lose fat, gain muscle and hit a lightweight threshold (11st, 5lb) within 14 weeks, in order to enter a sporting competition. Fanny arseing around with your idea of diets would be pointless.

I'm eating 3000 calories a day at present, mainly protein, fruit, and simple carbs.... I burn of at least 1500 in exercise per day.

 

[Jacob]

.....
Dieting is hard work, I am 12 weeks in to a vicious diet, it is not fun or likeable but there again I never expected it to be.

....

Don't agree. No reason why it shouldn't be likeable.

......... you have no idea of what I'm trying to achieve.

I need to lose fat, gain muscle and hit a lightweight threshold (11st, 5lb) within 14 weeks, in order to enter a sporting competition. Fanny arseing around with your idea of diets would be pointless.

I'm eating 3000 calories a day at present, mainly protein, fruit, and simple carbs.... I burn of at least 1500 in exercise per day.

TBH I've no idea what a calorie means in terms of food. But 14 weeks? Shouldn't be a prob unless you really are a very large person.
If you make your diet enjoyable it's more attainable. Think oysters, champagne, caviar on little bits of brown bread, the occasional grape. Sushi.
Cycling is good. Cycle to oyster bars. Cycle to the butcher for a quarter pound fillet steak. Then cycle off again for a mushroom, an onion, a potato and a bit of horseradish.

 

[wobblycogs]

I'd love to know what you're training for Dr Bob and how much exercise your doing to burn off the number of calories I'm eating in a day. Fair play though, I'm getting tired just thinking about it.

 

[doctor Bob]

Jacob your post tells me you haven't got a clue about sports diet.