daver828
Member
Just read the review on the MK II. Was wondering about the Richard Kell honing guides. How do they stack up?
honing guide
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woodbloke
Established Member
The Veritas MkII is very versatile and easy to set up, lots of forum members use one. The Kells are beautifully made but are really difficult to use IMO, though work best with the 'scary sharp' system as the wheels have got somewhere to run on. I use an Eclipse clone type of guide and I've yet to find anything to beat it - Robdaver828":bx1uayw9 said:
I've got the Veritas Mk II and the Kell but don't use the latter. The Veritas is much easier to set up, more versatile and a lot easier to find a comfortable and effective grip.
Jim
Jim
Ironballs
Established Member
I have the Veritas Mk2 plus camber roller, skew jig and small blade jig, works very well for me and used with waterstones gives a very sharp and easily repeatable edge
Rob_H
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Just had a look at Axminster but out of stock - I'm going to order one when they come in. My woodworking suffers through lack of ability/knowledge around plane sharpening and is stopping me taking things to the next level. [/code]
frugal
Established Member
Rob_H":ud9vjel1 said:
I got mine from Classic Handtools. I think that Workshop heaven might also stock them.
I have an original unmodified Eclipse, a Kell Mk II and a Veritas.
I never got on with the Eclipse with its narrow wheel though people who do like it as it allows cambers to be formed.
The Veritas is easy to set up but care must be taken to ensure that the support is tightened up evenly to keep the blade true.
The Kell really needs a setting out jig to be made (very easy - similar to Rob's at a guess?). Apart from that very easy to use and ideal for Japanese chisels and wide blades as it grips at the sides.
I never got on with the Eclipse with its narrow wheel though people who do like it as it allows cambers to be formed.
The Veritas is easy to set up but care must be taken to ensure that the support is tightened up evenly to keep the blade true.
The Kell really needs a setting out jig to be made (very easy - similar to Rob's at a guess?). Apart from that very easy to use and ideal for Japanese chisels and wide blades as it grips at the sides.
Thats interesting regarding the comments on the narrow wheel of the eclipse. I find the narrow wheel useful for two reasons, 1 it enables me to make a 90 degree straight edge by varying the pressure point and 2 to generate a curved edge. I think folk may rely to much on the narrow wheel for guidance, I almost ignore that the wheel is there, I just let it determine the angle and put all my concentration on how I present the edge to the surface.
John. B
Established Member
I've a kell for my Japanese chisels,
mainly because at the time of purchase there was nothing else that would take my very wide one's.
It was then of course a little cheaper than they are now, but it's a super piece of precision engineering,
and it does the job. :lol: :lol:
John. B
mainly because at the time of purchase there was nothing else that would take my very wide one's.
It was then of course a little cheaper than they are now, but it's a super piece of precision engineering,
and it does the job. :lol: :lol:
John. B
I too bought a Kell for Jap chisels, although David C's subsequent mod to the eclipse works pretty well. Either hold narrow chisels better than the MkII. The Kell's wheels are not really suited to waterstones, get full of slurry - better diamond and maybe harder 8000 grit waterstone to polish.
Perhaps someone ( Rob Lee?) can invent a hold-narrow-chisel-by-the-edge adaption for the MkII which is excellent in all other respects!
Perhaps someone ( Rob Lee?) can invent a hold-narrow-chisel-by-the-edge adaption for the MkII which is excellent in all other respects!
Paul Chapman
Established Member
I recently bought the Trend honing guide, which is good for most chisels in that it registers off the flat side like the modified Eclipse. However, disappointingly there isn't enough clearance between the top of the jig and the roller for it to take chisels of a thick section (flat side to bevel side) like pig stickers or even the thickest of the LN chisels.
No single honing guide is good for everything IMHO. I now use four different guides, because I need to hone lots of different types of blades - the Veritas MK 1, the Veritas MK 2, the Eclipse ( modified and un-modified) and the Trend. They all excel at some things but none at everything.
Cheers :wink:
Paul
No single honing guide is good for everything IMHO. I now use four different guides, because I need to hone lots of different types of blades - the Veritas MK 1, the Veritas MK 2, the Eclipse ( modified and un-modified) and the Trend. They all excel at some things but none at everything.
Cheers :wink:
Paul
woodbloke
Established Member
Paul here is in imminent danger here of being labelled a 'honing guide collector' :lol: My Eclipse clone is modified aka Mr C (very easy to do) and will hold any chisel (including Jap ones) that I put in it, apart from the smallest LN 3mm. As Pete correctly said, the wheel is disregarded as finger pressure is applied to the front of the blade to hone the desired profile. As I said earlier, if you use an Eclipse clone guide (and do the MrC mod) you'll struggle to find anything to better it...'specially at the price :roll: :wink: The essential thing to make though is the 'bench hook' projection board which guarantees repeatable accuracy...without it, it's a very 'hit and miss' affair - RobPaul Chapman":fezv6yiy said:
Paul Chapman
Established Member
woodbloke":28t7n7to said:
One advantage I find with the Trend guide, as opposed to the modified Eclipse, is that it has a very wide roller. I'm now using the guide for most of my chisels and also for multi-plane blades as I find it better than the Eclipse for ensuring that the edge stays dead straight and at right angles to the side. I agree that you can get just as good results with the Eclipse but it requires a bit more concentration and effort with some blades.
Cheers :wink:
Paul
matthewwh
Established Member
I beleive that the Kell guides are often misunderstood and at some stage in the future people will twig just how incredibly clever they are.
Going back to first principles they all have two wheels and all register (correctly) against the back of the blade. How anyone is supposed to establish the angle relative to the back by registering against the face side is beyond me. Two wheels means that the guide is master of the tool rather than the other way around, it also means that the guide 'shrinks' (as opposed to maginfying) any irregularity in the surface on which they are used. So if the rollers are 1" apart on centre and you are honing a 1/4" chisel, for example, the edge will be 4 times as square as the surface of your honing media is flat.
Having arrived at a guide that will do square to an order of magnitude, you can then adjust the whole tool and guide arrangement to produce very precise alterations in the honing angle by shimming under one of the wheels.
With the No3 Mk2 you can also shim under the locating pins on the back of the registration plate to give any angle of skew you like, swap the shim to the other pin and you have the exact reverse angle. Making it a complete doddle to produce the sweetest camber on plane irons. Use exponentially thicker shims (1 sheet of paper, fold it, fold it again, fold it again) and you can produce a progressive camber that gives you the widest possible cut whilst still eliminating the corners of the blade.
Simple, brilliant, incredibly effective and individually handmade by a devout perfectionist to a standard working tolerance of 1 thou maximum. I've got one of each stashed away for my son just incase Richard has stopped making them by the time he is ready to appreciate them.
Going back to first principles they all have two wheels and all register (correctly) against the back of the blade. How anyone is supposed to establish the angle relative to the back by registering against the face side is beyond me. Two wheels means that the guide is master of the tool rather than the other way around, it also means that the guide 'shrinks' (as opposed to maginfying) any irregularity in the surface on which they are used. So if the rollers are 1" apart on centre and you are honing a 1/4" chisel, for example, the edge will be 4 times as square as the surface of your honing media is flat.
Having arrived at a guide that will do square to an order of magnitude, you can then adjust the whole tool and guide arrangement to produce very precise alterations in the honing angle by shimming under one of the wheels.
With the No3 Mk2 you can also shim under the locating pins on the back of the registration plate to give any angle of skew you like, swap the shim to the other pin and you have the exact reverse angle. Making it a complete doddle to produce the sweetest camber on plane irons. Use exponentially thicker shims (1 sheet of paper, fold it, fold it again, fold it again) and you can produce a progressive camber that gives you the widest possible cut whilst still eliminating the corners of the blade.
Simple, brilliant, incredibly effective and individually handmade by a devout perfectionist to a standard working tolerance of 1 thou maximum. I've got one of each stashed away for my son just incase Richard has stopped making them by the time he is ready to appreciate them.
woodbloke
Established Member
Hi Matthew - I understand your commitment to the Kells and they are true things of beauty but I still maintain that they're very awkward in use and almost impossible to use on narrower honing stones like my DMT and Spyderco 'cos there's nowhere for the wheels to run. I had a really good play with a couple when Dunbarhamlin came down to see me in October last year and I simply couldn't get on with them. For my sharpening system, the modified Eclipse guide (which also registers off the back) works far better - Rob
I was a little puzzled by Woodbloke's comments so had a play with my Kell MkII this afternoon.
It probably will work better using the scary sharpening methods (i.e. on abrasive sheets) but will fit the (narrow) Spyderco with a chisel up to about 30mm wide. For larger widths the stone would have to sit in a trough.
It is very simple to set up especially if you make a simple setting out gauge as described in the instructions. It has a brass finger nut which is finger tightened to grip the sides of the blade - the blade's face is held slung underneath and against the steel connecting rods. Much easier in practice than to explain.
My Eclipse has not been modified so will not take the chunky Japanese chisels, but the Kell was much quicker to set up than the Veritas with which you have to adjust two mounting screws and slide on and off the gauge.
Rod
It probably will work better using the scary sharpening methods (i.e. on abrasive sheets) but will fit the (narrow) Spyderco with a chisel up to about 30mm wide. For larger widths the stone would have to sit in a trough.
It is very simple to set up especially if you make a simple setting out gauge as described in the instructions. It has a brass finger nut which is finger tightened to grip the sides of the blade - the blade's face is held slung underneath and against the steel connecting rods. Much easier in practice than to explain.
My Eclipse has not been modified so will not take the chunky Japanese chisels, but the Kell was much quicker to set up than the Veritas with which you have to adjust two mounting screws and slide on and off the gauge.
Rod
woodbloke
Established Member
Rod - try honing a 50mm plane blade in a Kell on an ordinary DMT stone...very difficult to do, if not impossible without making some sort of guide system for the wheels to run on, narrow stuff would be OK, but as blade widths get wider you start to run out of somewhere for the wheels to go - RobHarbo":tanw9vh2 said:
The Kell was the first guide I found that seemed able to hold the Japanese chisels, but I am still struggling because I find it very difficult to set it for repeated use, and as I'm trying to sharpen at 35 degrees, the extension is very short, and very sensitive to slight changes. (Actually the Sharpskate can hold most of the Japanese chisels, though it may put a dent in the front of ones with a triangular cross section. I find it kind of hard to get the blade centered and adjusted, and the dent kind of bothers me.)
I do not seem to have much success with the Veritas Mk II on chisels. It can't hold my Japanese chisels at all and my Lie Nielsen chisels always seem to slip. (This slipping would theoretically indicate that I don't have the two screws evenly tightened, but it seems to be a persistent problem no matter how hard I try to evenly tighten.)
What is the Eclipse modification?
I do not seem to have much success with the Veritas Mk II on chisels. It can't hold my Japanese chisels at all and my Lie Nielsen chisels always seem to slip. (This slipping would theoretically indicate that I don't have the two screws evenly tightened, but it seems to be a persistent problem no matter how hard I try to evenly tighten.)
What is the Eclipse modification?
