Homeward bound...
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woodbloke
Established Member
wizer":3ogagp77 said:
shouldn't use that anymore :lol: - RobI realise that this open to another debate, but he was found Guilty in a Court of Law and until such time that he is found not guilty or not by an Appeal Court - I think he should have remained in Scotland.
He did not give those poor souls time to say goodbye to their loved ones!
Rod
He did not give those poor souls time to say goodbye to their loved ones!
Rod
Dibs-h
Established Member
woodbloke":et0dui5a said:
It was a state sponsored crime - which state isn't really known (to us at least), but it was at least 1 of 2 or both (Libya or Iran). He's nothing more than a patsy, definitely not in the centre of matters.
He's dying and the words of Dr Jim Swire ,
"On reasonable human grounds it is the right thing to do and if it's true
that he is to be returned on compassionate grounds, then that would be more to Scotland's credit than returning him under the prisoner transfer agreement."
Something to aspire to - Dr Swire's behaviour considering his monumental loss. Something in stark contrast to those interviewed from the US.
It's difficult no matter what the position is.
Jenx
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Very tricky one to 'call' ...
& personally feel slightly sorry for McAskill, as he's 'damned if he do, damned if he don't' , and will no doubt come under some criticism for the decision to release the guy.
Which no doubt he would have been, if he'd decided to keep him in Greenock.
As I understand it - he's got 3 months to live, and the 'humanity' in me would say ok.. let him go home to die, but as mentioned above... 200+ people didn't get that luxury,
so it's a very difficult one to call I reckon.
From that quote of Dr.Swire's... that once again quantifies him as something pretty special I think. He's basically the voice of the "friends & family of Lockerbie", and I guess will represent the general feeling of those involved, certainly from a UK perspective.
As also mentioned... it's pretty much accepted that this was a state-crime, and there is still, I believe, a little bit of dubiety over the nature of macgrachie's guilt... as so often in 'monumental' cases, a head must be found to be held accountable to attone for the public's thirst for someone on which to focus the blame etc.... I'm sure the guilt runs much deeper than this one individual.
But we'll probably never know the full truth and facts.
There are definately two sides to this releasing, and its a difficult call to make, to come down on either one or the other.
I'm personally very undecided as to whether this was 'right' or not...
be very interesting to read the views of others, if they're forthcoming.
& personally feel slightly sorry for McAskill, as he's 'damned if he do, damned if he don't' , and will no doubt come under some criticism for the decision to release the guy.
Which no doubt he would have been, if he'd decided to keep him in Greenock.
As I understand it - he's got 3 months to live, and the 'humanity' in me would say ok.. let him go home to die, but as mentioned above... 200+ people didn't get that luxury,
so it's a very difficult one to call I reckon.
From that quote of Dr.Swire's... that once again quantifies him as something pretty special I think. He's basically the voice of the "friends & family of Lockerbie", and I guess will represent the general feeling of those involved, certainly from a UK perspective.
As also mentioned... it's pretty much accepted that this was a state-crime, and there is still, I believe, a little bit of dubiety over the nature of macgrachie's guilt... as so often in 'monumental' cases, a head must be found to be held accountable to attone for the public's thirst for someone on which to focus the blame etc.... I'm sure the guilt runs much deeper than this one individual.
But we'll probably never know the full truth and facts.
There are definately two sides to this releasing, and its a difficult call to make, to come down on either one or the other.
I'm personally very undecided as to whether this was 'right' or not...
be very interesting to read the views of others, if they're forthcoming.
woodbloke
Established Member
I can't help but think that Biggs has recently been released on the same sort of grounds, so a very recent precedent has been set - Rob
Walter Hall
Established Member
Much as I admire Dr Jim Swire's magnanimity and concede that al-Megrahi was only one cog in a complex web of international crime it remains my view that convicted criminals should serve out their sentence.
RogerS
Established Member
Should have made it a poll!
He should serve out his sentence as should Biggs. Compassion has nothing to do with it.
In the same category that 'life' should mean exactly that.
He should serve out his sentence as should Biggs. Compassion has nothing to do with it.
In the same category that 'life' should mean exactly that.
devonwoody
Established Member
I bet there is a some of money at the bottom of it for someone or party!
Anyway the Americans could have asked for extradition, afterall American property was destroyed as well, I assume he was only charged with the death of people.
Anyway the Americans could have asked for extradition, afterall American property was destroyed as well, I assume he was only charged with the death of people.
Walter Hall
Established Member
Were one to be cynical, one might think Libya's wealth of oil resources might have something to do with it.
And I thought justice would be
" Flight blows up in mid air "
nuf said :evil:
" Flight blows up in mid air "
nuf said :evil:
Jenx
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The 'celebrations' in Libya, upon his arrival back there certainly don't help if one was trying to see that this was the right thing to do.
I wonder if there may be any backlash to that...
Brittleheart is right though.. given the value and volume of contracts being won / awarded for Oil & gas Exploration and Production in that part of the world, coupled with the current global turndown will have had a lot to do with it, I dare say.
As one who 'bemoans' the ineffectiveness of the british judicial system quite frequently, I do find myself very much in empathy with Roger's thought that 'life should be life'...
But I wouldn't like to have been the person to make the decision on this ... I'd imagine McAskill will have been under pressure from several sides, as mentioned previously.
I saw the guy Magrachie leaving the aircraft on TV this morning... he certainly doesn't look a well man. I guess the "3 Months" many indeed be fairly accurate.
Interesting discussion though from an 'objective' perspective.
I wonder if there may be any backlash to that...
Brittleheart is right though.. given the value and volume of contracts being won / awarded for Oil & gas Exploration and Production in that part of the world, coupled with the current global turndown will have had a lot to do with it, I dare say.
As one who 'bemoans' the ineffectiveness of the british judicial system quite frequently, I do find myself very much in empathy with Roger's thought that 'life should be life'...
But I wouldn't like to have been the person to make the decision on this ... I'd imagine McAskill will have been under pressure from several sides, as mentioned previously.
I saw the guy Magrachie leaving the aircraft on TV this morning... he certainly doesn't look a well man. I guess the "3 Months" many indeed be fairly accurate.
Interesting discussion though from an 'objective' perspective.
woodbloke
Established Member
Having read some of the stuff on this incident in the on-line papers, there's clearly a lot more to this than will ever be disclosed. It seems that there may have been a miscarriage of justice which would have come to light had the 'alleged' perp stayed behind bars. Now that he's been released as a free man, he'll never know the outcome of his appeal, but as the Times said, he'll go to his grave as a convicted murderer - Rob
Walter Hall
Established Member
As usual Rob, we are all making judgements about this which are not only coloured by our own views and prejudices, but by what the establishment and the media have chosen to tell us, or not to tell us, 'twas ever thus.
Walter
Walter
head clansman
Established Member
Hi all
we as the British public will never know the truth of what or who was really behind the mass murder of innocent members of the public regardless of there nationality .
this guy i feel was the scape goat who took the rap to hush thing down for a while and i also feel it may not have even involve libya at all the media only allow us to know what it's want us to , controlled though the individual countries involved for what ever reason .
if the guy is innocent which we (the public ) will never know then yes you can bet individual government will know this and we should show compassion to him , the other case ,we all know biggs was guilty , so IMHO he should have serve his time till the end.
when it can be proved he is innocent ( if so) as he has always claimed from the beginning then his name should be cleared as any other persons would be in case of wrongful conviction
I can't help but wonder the anger coming from the states at the moment if the war ships will soon start gathering off the libyan coast again .hc
we as the British public will never know the truth of what or who was really behind the mass murder of innocent members of the public regardless of there nationality .
this guy i feel was the scape goat who took the rap to hush thing down for a while and i also feel it may not have even involve libya at all the media only allow us to know what it's want us to , controlled though the individual countries involved for what ever reason .
if the guy is innocent which we (the public ) will never know then yes you can bet individual government will know this and we should show compassion to him , the other case ,we all know biggs was guilty , so IMHO he should have serve his time till the end.
when it can be proved he is innocent ( if so) as he has always claimed from the beginning then his name should be cleared as any other persons would be in case of wrongful conviction
I can't help but wonder the anger coming from the states at the moment if the war ships will soon start gathering off the libyan coast again .hc
RogerS
Established Member
Interesting set of stats from the BBC Have Your Say website
Total comments:
11181
Published comments:
7913
Rejected comments:
1144
Moderation queue:
2124
Other threads like 'should car clamping be allowed' have figures at least an order of magnitude lower. Curious though to know what the relevance is of something like 'Have Your Say' to broadcasting and how much licence fee is used in paying the moderators.
Total comments:
11181
Published comments:
7913
Rejected comments:
1144
Moderation queue:
2124
Other threads like 'should car clamping be allowed' have figures at least an order of magnitude lower. Curious though to know what the relevance is of something like 'Have Your Say' to broadcasting and how much licence fee is used in paying the moderators.
head clansman":1op2nj0e said:
The US is in no position to plead that convicted mass murderers should die in prison. Have a google for "My Lai massacre". This being a family site I won't go into detail about the atrocities committed by Lt William Calley, but nuff said to say that he was responsible for leading a platoon in Vietnam that slaughtered 504 old men, women and children (inc babies used for target practice) as well as **** and torture. Calley was personally responsible for over 80 of the deaths. After a cover up that lasted a year, investigative journalism brought it in to the open and Calley was charged and sentenced to life in prison with hard labour. President Nixon immediately stepped in and commuted it to 4 years house arrest, and as Calley had already spent 3 years awaiting trial in a military prison he was eligible for parole and released after serving just 3 days of his sentence.
So, double standards from the US here I think. Of course the fact that Megrahi's victims were American citizens and Calley's were not would have had no bearing on the situation.
Grinding One
Established Member
From my perspective,if the guy released,has nothing to look forward to, so becomes a jihadist and comes back and blows up some more citizens....somebody is going to have egg on his face.
On the Viet namm thing as I understand it,The LT. was told this was a cong stronghold.He was ordered to hit it and wipe it off the map.The reason it did not come to court was that he had it right and bigger heads were going to fall all the way to the top.When you are at war if you fail to obey an order you can be shot on the spot...he had no prior knowledge that this wasn`t a hard target.You be the judge,your men are being wiped out and you are sent in to clean out the opposition (Old Men an Women can fight wars in their own ways,and even the war going on now is fought around kids so as not to be hit with air strikes)So what would you do?Get shot for refusing an direct order?
He was put in a bad situation,an I truly believe he didn`t know it wasn`t a Viet Cong village.Everybody was looking the same and a lot of villages over there would support the other side and hide munitions for the fighters...My cousin was going to give chocolate to some kids on the corner,the kids threw battery acid in his friends face,scaring him for life.On another occasion a kid threw a hand grenade at the truck in a convoy.
I`ll take the wait and see what is going to happen...then give my verdict.
On the Viet namm thing as I understand it,The LT. was told this was a cong stronghold.He was ordered to hit it and wipe it off the map.The reason it did not come to court was that he had it right and bigger heads were going to fall all the way to the top.When you are at war if you fail to obey an order you can be shot on the spot...he had no prior knowledge that this wasn`t a hard target.You be the judge,your men are being wiped out and you are sent in to clean out the opposition (Old Men an Women can fight wars in their own ways,and even the war going on now is fought around kids so as not to be hit with air strikes)So what would you do?Get shot for refusing an direct order?
He was put in a bad situation,an I truly believe he didn`t know it wasn`t a Viet Cong village.Everybody was looking the same and a lot of villages over there would support the other side and hide munitions for the fighters...My cousin was going to give chocolate to some kids on the corner,the kids threw battery acid in his friends face,scaring him for life.On another occasion a kid threw a hand grenade at the truck in a convoy.
I`ll take the wait and see what is going to happen...then give my verdict.
devonwoody
Established Member
Assuming the Libyan prisoner himself didn't ask for release on compassionate grounds, who was the instigator of the request, then I might be able to come to a decision whether it was politics, money or compassion.
