Here we go again - welcome to the country of fatuous regs
- Thread starter RogerS
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RogerS":1z1pqvdk said:
I was wondering if there were many accidents in the UK due to faulty wiring or whatever. No one else in the rest of Europe even has obligatory earth pins, never mind an on-off switch for each socket or fuses in plugs, plus a ream of pointless regulations which prevent home owners from repairing their own property. I can't say I've ever heard of anyone having problems with dodgy wiring/sockets in Holland. Why the paranoia in the UK? It seems like singular tragedies always cause pointless knee-jerk legislation. Life is a risk, you can't legislate for everything.
RogerS
Established Member
Loz_S":18htma3w said:
You are absolutely correct in this. What sparked off the debate in the UK was an MP whose daughter (IIRC) was electrocuted in the kitchen. Whoever had buried a wire in the wall (common practice in the UK) had run the cable diagonally. The partner (husband?) of the MP drilled into the wall to fix up a metal shelf..just above the cooker (IIRC).. and one of the screws nicked the live wire but not enough to blow any breakers etc. There is no evidence that the partner exercised any commonsense by using a metal or cable detector prior to drilling into the wall. The daughter held the shelf and the earthed cooker and was killed sadly. The upshot was that the MP then started campaigning to enforce how electrical work was carried out in the UK.
We have many umbrella trades type organisations such as NICEIC who, ever one to jump on a bandwagon particularly as they could see lots and lots of fat regulatory fees coming along downline plus it gave them more control, leant their weight behind the campaign. The UK being what it is - nanny state and all that - and a Government hellbent on ramming unwanted and ill-thought through laws down our throats, duly incorporated these new regulations as Part P of the Building Regulations.
Which brings us back to your earlier question. I contacted RoSPA (Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents) for their statistics on number of accidents related to faulty wiring. They did not have any. They had plenty where idiots had cut through their extension leads but none attributable to faulty wiring. So go figure. Part P justified? I think not.
Other driving forces for all of this? Well, yes, there is one. The UK society (as you probably know) has developed a penchant for suing someone - anyone - it's someone's fault (although never the person doing the suing). We were drifting towards this but only gradually until the dear old Government (bless 'em) did two things - each of which by itself was not a problem - but introducing the two together was calamitous and established the UKs' love of the 'blame culture'.
First, they radically changed the Legal Aid funding. That meant that it became more difficult for some people to take out an action against someone. My view - tough - who said life was fair?
Second, they allowed solicitors to advertise. End result a huge hole just waiting to be filled by 'No-win no-fee ambulance chasing parasites' - ooops - sorry - solicitors and lawyers and the rest, as they say, is history.
Thus endeth the lesson :wink: :lol: I'll get off me soapbox.
I don't think there is any evidence that we, particular, parasites had anything to do with Part P, Roger.
Purely a mix between a passionate and campaigning MP, a lot of ignorance and gullability in parliament and the civil service, a lobbying trade body with an eye for the main chance of setting up a medieval guild, and a bunch of misused lies and damn lies (IIRC they included all house fire deaths caused by electricity in their supporting evidence - whether due to fixed wiring, appliance, extension leads, whatever).
Purely a mix between a passionate and campaigning MP, a lot of ignorance and gullability in parliament and the civil service, a lobbying trade body with an eye for the main chance of setting up a medieval guild, and a bunch of misused lies and damn lies (IIRC they included all house fire deaths caused by electricity in their supporting evidence - whether due to fixed wiring, appliance, extension leads, whatever).
RogerS
Established Member
Jake":3oafm0rq said:
:lol: :lol:
RogerS":m6wt0gk7 said:
Thanks very much for getting on your soapbox, that was actually very interesting
As sad and tragic the incident must have been for that MP, it almost seems like an abuse of power to foist new laws on a country because of a personal event.Next thing will be obligatory CO meters stuck to the forehead of all British tourists...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3735928.stm
Despite all the events that led upto this sad event I fail to see how part P, as in force currently, would have prevented it from occurring had they been in force at the time of the house's construction.
Roy.
Despite all the events that led upto this sad event I fail to see how part P, as in force currently, would have prevented it from occurring had they been in force at the time of the house's construction.
Roy.
Shadowfax
Established Member
They won't make any difference because there is still nothing to stop anyone from drilling a hole in a wall.
Buried cables at right angles to socket outlets in defined zones will do nothing to stop a plonker drilling into a wall in the wrong place, will it?
Only an RCD would have made a difference and they are now becoming the norm especially in the 17th Edition Regs.
On the subject of deaths in the home, most of the "electrical" accidents were and still are those that involve appliances, not the fixed wiring. Even the tragic event above involved an appliance.
I have seen plenty of examples of dodgy wiring and a few fires caused by it but if it was actually as dangerous as HMG made out before Part P came in the UK would have been thick with electrocuted bodies I should think!
SF
Buried cables at right angles to socket outlets in defined zones will do nothing to stop a plonker drilling into a wall in the wrong place, will it?
Only an RCD would have made a difference and they are now becoming the norm especially in the 17th Edition Regs.
On the subject of deaths in the home, most of the "electrical" accidents were and still are those that involve appliances, not the fixed wiring. Even the tragic event above involved an appliance.
I have seen plenty of examples of dodgy wiring and a few fires caused by it but if it was actually as dangerous as HMG made out before Part P came in the UK would have been thick with electrocuted bodies I should think!
SF
An interesting point here of course is that had the dishwasher not been earthed the woman would still be alive. Wherever possible I prefer isolation as a means of protection. Also a woman with her apparent cash could have afforded an RCD fitment.
Retro fitting of RCDs would do more to prevent shocks than any large stack of part P inspection forms ever will.
Roy.
Retro fitting of RCDs would do more to prevent shocks than any large stack of part P inspection forms ever will.
Roy.
Shadowfax
Established Member
Roy, you have it in one!
SF
SF
RogerS
Established Member
Digit":1lz9pqiv said:
Having read that news article, it would appear that the wiring WAS installed correctly - give or take. Five degrees from the vertical? Well within normal practice I would have said.
Certainly, and what made it worse was a few mill over and the fuses would have blown! Very unfortunate, but why the rest of us should have to pay is questionable.
Part P doesn't stop the house holder from doing his own wiring, or force him to have it inspected any way!
Roy.
Part P doesn't stop the house holder from doing his own wiring, or force him to have it inspected any way!
Roy.
RogerS
Established Member
Digit":1dhpogxc said:
Until he comes to sell....
I haven't read the regs in detail Rog but a leaflet I picked up out of interest from our local DIY outlet listed such endevours as extending an existing ciruit required nothing more than the tools and knowledge to do it.
Complete with instructions on how to do just that!
Roy
Complete with instructions on how to do just that!
Roy
You can add a socket to an existing circuit (as long as it isn't in a bathroom or kitchen). Not much more than that.
I am finding it helps to have about 400m of old cable in the cellar...for those rooms where the BCO is not otherwise involved.
I am finding it helps to have about 400m of old cable in the cellar...for those rooms where the BCO is not otherwise involved.
Interesting topic. It is apparent that UK regulations are far stricter than on the Continent but can anyone tell me why the UK doesn't use solid copper cable or conduits (like Germany, Holland and France, that I know of) when laying wiring into a wall? Surely that would be the easiest safety improvement that could be made to UK regs?
From what I have seen it appears to be multi-strand, sheathed, flexible cable laid directly into the plaster work. Is that right?
From what I have seen it appears to be multi-strand, sheathed, flexible cable laid directly into the plaster work. Is that right?
No, standard fixed wiring is in double-pvc-sheathed cable, with solid conductors.
Conduit is sometimes used, but most commonly plastic stuff which is really to protect the cable from plasterers - and, if you are ambitious, so you can attempt a rewire later on. Earthed metal conduit is generally only used where cable is run outside of the 'safe zones' and not at 'safe depths' (more than 50mm) - where you do have to use it.
Conduit offers some protection, but also reduces cable capacity (heat transfer).
I guess it's a trade-off between cost (copper conductor sizes, conduit cost, installation costs) and safety. We are quite a pragmatic people, despite what the "it's all terrible, the world's gone mad" folk think.
Conduit is sometimes used, but most commonly plastic stuff which is really to protect the cable from plasterers - and, if you are ambitious, so you can attempt a rewire later on. Earthed metal conduit is generally only used where cable is run outside of the 'safe zones' and not at 'safe depths' (more than 50mm) - where you do have to use it.
Conduit offers some protection, but also reduces cable capacity (heat transfer).
I guess it's a trade-off between cost (copper conductor sizes, conduit cost, installation costs) and safety. We are quite a pragmatic people, despite what the "it's all terrible, the world's gone mad" folk think.
RogerS
Established Member
Jake":3bi5yj8c said:
Definitely pragmatic
