help with kitchen worktop

[darren242]

hi all, I have been asked to fit a kitchen with hidden joints on the worktop, its a standard 90 degree corner on a high gloss worktop. I have never even attempted a hidden joint before so can anyone offer advice, Do i just need a worktop jig and router bit and its easy or is there still dangers to watch out for as i dont want to ruin it.

Any advice is welcome

darren

 

[Argee]

Have a look at a page I did here for what you probably need.

It's not difficult, providing that you follow the instructions exactly and start with a brand new router bit. You'll also need a 30mm guide bush for your router. The high-gloss tops are no more difficult than any other post-formed top, but you MUST ensure that the customer knows that they're not bomb proof and do scratch fairly easily.

Ray.

 

[darren242]

wow thanks argee that was a fast answer and looking at your link its perfect, gonna read through it now and hopefully i'll be able to do it, Should the router be set on full speed for the cut, sure i read somewhere it has to be over 20 thou revs is this right ?

Thanks again
darren

 

[Andy Pullen]

It is generally called a Masons mitre and the short mitre is just a way of getting over the postformed front edge neatly. It is actually possible to do it by hand but much easier with a post form jig, router and 1/2" bit and 30mm collar for your router. The first bit of advice is to always do the female first then fit the male to it whether you do it by hand or machine and don't be surprised if the kitchen walls are a bit out of square. Lay the female cut over the male and mark it, allowing for the difference between your cutter and router collar, usually you set it back 8.5mm which is half your 13mm(ish) cutter and 30mm collar. Either way because it is being marked in situ the joint should fit Always cut into the worktop front edge, turn over for cutting with a circular saw and right to left with a router turning over if necessary to avoid 'blowing out' the front edge of the piece you want to keep. Wickes hire out jigs routers etc but by then it'd be cheaper to pay someone else. I believe my local timber merchant charge £40+vat per joint if you take it to them but obviously they cant easily allow for out of square walls.

 

[darren242]

thanks for the advice andy, i think i've done them by hand before on pine joining 2 inch architrave to 3 inch stuff, like you say the mitre bit is just for the front edge, are you saying that with a router i cut from the top rather than underside like with a circular saw.

 

[Andy Pullen]

thanks for the advice andy, i think i've done them by hand before on pine joining 2 inch architrave to 3 inch stuff, like you say the mitre bit is just for the front edge, are you saying that with a router i cut from the top rather than underside like with a circular saw.

With a router you must always cut from left to right and also orientate the worktop so that you are always cutting into the postformed front edge. This is so you are cutting into the piece you wish to keep rather than cutting out and blowing out the front edge of the laminate in the process. You will always have to flip over one half of the joint to achieve this, which half depends on whether your joint is left or right in orientation.
I am going from memory but it would seem correct that as you stand with a joint in front of you, the piece of worktop to your leftwould stay in its normal laminate up orientation so the cutter rotates clockwise into it, spelching out on the waste side. The piece to your right would need to be flipped over and cut from underneath so that again the router cuts clockwise into the front edge and spelches out the waste side. It takes me four runs to get thru a kitchen worktop and I detest these high gloss ones that scratch so easily. Always use masking tape on your cut lines then its easy to see you pencil lines and grit wont get under your jigsaw or router bases and damage the surface. (hope I got that all right.) :?

 

[darren242]

thanks andy, all seems to make some sense to me lol, and yeah i'll be sure to tape it up and hopefully not scratch it

 

[inventor]

The Mason's mitre that the jigs create is a just a way of mitring the rounded edge but saving overall worktop length. There's less waste with the mason's mitre. You can cut a conventional mitre with a circular saw instead and get just as good a result, but you waste an extra 500mm of worktop. And the jig is still handy for routing the cutouts for the bolt connectors underneath.

 

[chippy1970]

Always take a few passes so the router does not struggle this is the same with most routing tasks.

I once worked with an electrician who thought he was an expert kitchen fitter, when he cut the joints he would set the router to full depth and cut it on one go (nutter) what a muppet.

You can imagine what his joints looked like.

 

[cambournepete]

Have a look at a page I did here for what you probably need.

Thanks for posting that link again Ray - I've got to fit some worktop myself next week :shock:

Any recommendations for the jigs - or should I just hire one for a day or two?
Now, can I persuade myself I need the Festool router...

 

[Argee]

Any recommendations for the jigs - or should I just hire one for a day or two?

I've got one from Hafele, but - as you can imagine - there all pretty much the same. It depends how often you think you'll use one, I suppose, regarding whether you buy or hire. Hire jigs often have dings out of them (where the operator lifts out the router before the bit stops spinning) and are generally well banged about.

Most jigs are laminates, but you can get phenolic and aluminium too (at a premium, of course). Do a Google and see. Screwfix and Wickes also do them I think. It pays to get the biggest one if you're buying, then you'll be able to handle any size of top, including most double post-formed peninsulars. No doubt those who use one most days will have more specific recommendations, but I hope this is of some use.

Don't forget a 30mm guide bush for your router and a brand new 1/2" straight cutter of sufficient length (for the depth of worktop + thickness of the jig).

Ray.

 

[dickm]

When I asked a similar question about jigs some time last year, someone pointed out that they come up on Ebay from time to time. Might be worth a look?

 

[George_N]

I got a worktop jigthrough Ebay last year. It was obviously "seconds" as it had a big score running right across one side but all the important bits were fine, all the locating pegs were there etc.

 

[darren242]

thanks for all the advice guys, i've managed to borrow a jig from a mate but hes never used it so couldnt offer any help, Just got to go get a brand new router bit and check the size of my guide bushes lol

 

[cambournepete]

Thanks for the feedback.
Should I seal the joint?
If so do I need special "mitre seal" or will any (food safe) glue or sealant do the job?

 

[Argee]

Should I seal the joint?
If so do I need special "mitre seal" or will any (food safe) glue or sealant do the job?

Some sources also supply a colour-matched sealer for their tops, others don't, but you can get it and it's the preferred method, as it's made for the job. Look on the Web for Unika ColorFill as one example.

Otherwise, it really depends what the colour of the top is, assuming it's an ordinary particle or chip substrate. I normally slap in a couple of #20 biscuits between the bolt pockets to aid initial alignment and use yellow carpenters' glue if it's a light colour, coloured sealant if darker and as long as the joint is perfect, it will be fine. The goal is stopping any moisture getting into the substrate and blowing it.

Of course, if it's real wood, clear silicone on a straightforward butt joint - no mason's mitres in real wood tops! Ordinarily, this is straightforward, but beware IKEA wood tops, as they tend to have a <2mm bevel on every edge. Butting those would leave a "V"-shaped valley at the joint, so the bevel has to be removed for the exact length of the joint on both tops. Not difficult, but time-consuming if you don't allow for it.

Ray.

 

[cambournepete]

Ray,

Thanks - I'll get the sealant then.

It's not an Ikea worktop - no matter how hard we tried we couldn't force ourselves to like any of their cheaper ones and ended up with one from our local Ridgeons.

 

[cerbie]

This posting is rather fortuitous! At the end of this week I shall be starting to build a new kitchen and have decided to use oak for the worktop.

Have been to the local scirie and sourced the oak, air dried, but the chap there was not confident in the future stability of the top and tried to persuade me to think of something else (or at least I think that's what he said!), but I said I was willing to give it a go.
As an aside, what do you think as to price of the timber:
Enough oak for a 40mm thick top, total linear of 8M, 4M of which will be 700mm wide, the rest 600mm. Supplied in 2M lengths, sawn.
Total: 450 euros (about 320 stg) Expensive?

Now I noticed that argee said that silicone on a straight butt joint (no mason mitre - I can see why), but I take it that the 'dog bone' clamps are still required? I plan on using them.

steve
P.S. Am I right in thinking a brand new router bit will be completely knackered after one worktop fitting?

 

[ike]

Am I right in thinking a brand new router bit will be completely knackered after one worktop fitting?

Shouldn't be on oak. Chipboard and melamine though are very abrasive, but I have machined at least 6 joints on the same cutter (CMT) before noticing any significant dulling. Even then, a lick on a small diamond stone can rejuvenate a cutter.

Ike

 

[chippy1970]

Cerbie,

A customer of mine bought their own Oak butcher block worktops about two years ago and they paid around £700 for about 7 to 8 linear metres which I thought was pretty good that was from Champions.