Hello, and a beginner's question on M&T joinery.

[chaoticbob]

Hi. I've recently joined this forum - first post. To introduce myself briefly I am a fifty-something (but not for much longer alas) early-retired physicist with an interest in - well, making stuff. Over the last few years I've built up a small metalmangling workshop, but haven't done a lot of woodwork.

I've recently moved to a house which needs a bit doing to it - new kitchen, new doors and windows etc. The place has around 550 sq. ft. of dry(ish) cellarage, so obviously workshop potential for both metal and wood. I have persuaded SWMBO that it makes economic sense for me to set up a modest woodworking shop and do the work myself. Nothing to do with Tool Acquisition Disorder you understand. Woodworking machinery I already have amounts only to a small table saw (Bosch GTS 10), an 8-inch planer-thicknesser, 8 inch compound mitre saw and various hand held stuff - biscuit jointer, sanders, a couple of routers (no router table tho). So far I've trained myself to glue up boards true out of the twisted, cupped, warped timber they sell at the sheds using the TS and PT, but that's about it.

Thinking about the projects I have in mind, I really need to get to grips somehow with M&T joinery. I know this can be done with a handsaw and a chisel, but at my age it ain't going to happen. So I have been looking at easier ways, but I'm bewildered by the possiblities. Morticing machine and a bandsaw for the tenons? Domino (looks nice but expensive!)? Trend MT jig (how does that work?) Router table and a homemade jig (saw that somewhere in my researches)?

Any help in focussing my thinking will be much appreciated, and apologies if this question has been asked a million times before - it's a big site and I'm finding my way around. Likewise, sorry if I'm posting in the wrong place - perhaps mods will move the thread if so.

Regards, Rob.

 

[lurker]

Wirksworth isn't that where "our" Jacob lives?

 

[Baldhead]

Welcome Rob

I cut mortices with a router, tenons on the bandsaw, rounded off to fit the mortice. You can also cut the tenons on a TS but you would need a jig, or you can just keep cutting away from the end of the tenon to the shoulder although this can be very time consuming.

Because of my back problem I try to use hand tools more often, it means projects take a lot longer, but I'm a retired hobby woodworker so time is something I have lots of!

Baldhead

 

[deema]

Welcome to the forum Rob,

You have a lovely potential workshop that a little tanking would make in to a dream man cave.

I would not be so quick to dismiss the manual process of making Mortice and tennons. (No real effort for a youngster such as yourself) The first thing that seems to put people off is making the mortice. This is actually very easy with a proper mortice chisel and the right technique. You can wallop through a mortice using very little effort or time, even in hard woods. The tennon can be cut out on a bandsaw or again, with a tennon saw cut very quickly and tidied up with a chisel.

There are lots of videos of cutting a mortice with a chisel on uTube. However as a quick guide
Select a mortice chisel that's roughly 1/3 the width of you wood. It must be a proper mortice chisel. A 'pig stick' can be bought on an auction site for a few pounds is perfect.
Mark out the mortice using the width of the chisel to set the width of the mortice. A mortice gauge is preferable and makes the job very simple. A cheap one picked up on an auction site is well worth the investment.

Start in the very centre of the mortice and start chopping with the bevel of the chisel pointing away from the centre. Chop from both dudes alternatively, when you have reached half way through turn the wood over and start again from the other side. The most difficult bit is making the first chop along the mortice, I.e. Keeping in the lines, and perpendicular, after that the chisel is guided down. Sounds hard? It's not really, the first couple of attempts usually need a little refinement, but after that you will I'm sure have perfectly acceptable Mortices. It's not that hard In terms of effort, I can hand chop a mortice nearly as fast with a chisel as I can with my mortice machine, and it's almost the same amount of effort. If I'm not doing a lot of tennons, I will cut them by hand, as it's far quicker than setting up the Morticer, and mire satisfying.

 

[Jacob]

Just up the road Rob. Drop in and I can show you a mortice machine, mortice chisels, etc etc
and work in progress - another very traditional staircase on the way.

 

[marcros]

if you have a kitchen to make, I would go for the Domino. It is not the only way by any means, but is substantially faster than anything else.

 

[blackrodd]

Just up the road Rob. Drop in and I can show you a mortice machine, mortice chisels, etc etc
and work in progress - another very traditional staircase on the way.

+1 For the above.
As it sounds as if you will probably enjoy woodworking, thereby also saving loads of Lucre, not buying doors and windows, I would work easy and therefore more gainfully and get a small cheap morticer and cut the tenons either on a bandsaw or small circular using the rise and fall saw for the shoulders, job done.
Regards Rodders

 

[DTR]

.....and work in progress - another very traditional staircase on the way.

Why don't you post it up here? I'd love to see it in progress!

 

[mseries]

I don't own a Trend M&T jig, nor any other but i have studied it. It uses templates and guide bushes. The template it a large aperture and for the mortice the guide bush is as wide as the aperture (2 1/8" actually). The width of the mortice is the width of the selected cutter. The template is used for the tenon too so the jig isn't changed from mortice to tenon. A different cutter and guide bush are used to create a tenon of the correct width when traced around the inside of the template. Here is detailed write up that I found http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/Tren ... Tjig1.html

I am playing around with making a jig on along the same lines, my progress is slow though !

 

[chaoticbob]

Hi again. Thanks for all your welcomes and suggestions. Your replies have indeed focussed my thinking. Following Deema's suggestion to reconsider hand-making I had a look for mortice chisels in the Axminster catalogue. Good God, 32 quid for a chisel! Probably a very nice chisel, but...
So I looked further and found Workshop Heaven offering Narex chisels at a more reasonable price. But this led me by a circuitous route to some YouTube videos in which Paul Sellers shows how to chop a mortice with an ordinary bevel chisel. I have a selection of these, some inherited, some bought, and I've sharpened them - I have a Sorby Pro-Edge thing which I bought for metalworking stuff (it's a nice little machine). So I'm going to have a go at training myself to do these joints by hand. In fact, I don't think I shall be able to rest until I can do so! Generally my interest in making stuff isn't only about the finished product, but also acquiring skills and getting a feel for the medium. At the stage I'm at I will get much more satisfaction from going down this route than throwing money at the problem and buying a Domino I think. As Rodders said, I should take it easy - I'm not in a desperate hurry.

Pauls Sellers also has a nicely presented series of videos showing how to make a workbench using only hand tools. I was thinking a proper woodworking bench should be my first serious project, so I'm going to have a bash at it.

Mseries - thanks for the link to the Trend jig stuff. I've not quite got my head round how it works yet, but shall study further. Because I have metalworking machinery I could probably make one. I do wonder about how long it takes to set up though - maybe easier to get to grips with the chisel/saw way.

Jacob - you are indeed just up the road from me it seems! I'd like to take you up on your invitation. Not yet figured out how to send personal messages on this board though.
Regards, Rob

 

[John15]

Hi Rob,

Welcome. There is usually a good selection of second-hand mortice chisels on Ebay at very reasonable prices.

John

 

[mseries]

Mseries - thanks for the link to the Trend jig stuff. I've not quite got my head round how it works yet, but shall study further. Because I have metalworking machinery I could probably make one. I do wonder about how long it takes to set up though - maybe easier to get to grips with the chisel/saw way.

I like the technical aspect of jigs and I am primarily a router user keen to explore template routing so I am in the process of building my own interpretation of this jig. In the past though I have done M&Ts using hand tools and find it quite rewarding to do them well. I don't do enough to make them all of high quality though. If you do make it I'll be interested in seeing some pictures

 

[Jacob]

.....
Jacob - you are indeed just up the road from me it seems! I'd like to take you up on your invitation. Not yet figured out how to send personal messages on this board though.
Regards, Rob

Click the PM button on the bottom of the message window.
Look for messages received in the "User tools" window to the right.
Am around most of the time for the next week or two.

 

[Fat ferret]

A fairly speedy but cheap way is medium plunge cutting router for mortices and then square mortices by hand and do tenons by hand or you can speed them up with router too.

You don't have to buy top quality routers but good cutters are vital. Wealden tool are good, cheaper than some and the sales staff are helpful and knollegeable.

 

[chaoticbob]

John - did a search on eBay for 'pig sticker' (never heard the term before!) and amongst the offers of Peppa Pig decals there were indeed some very reasonably priced mortice chisels. So thanks for that.

Mseries - I'll surely post a pic if I make the jig, but workshop in total disarray following house move so don't hold your breath.

Jacob - I'm obviously going blind as well as deaf, can't see a PM button. No matter, my daughter is home for the holiday, she'll see it and roll her eyes in that 'you poor stupid old man' way. I'll get in touch somehow - Monday should be good for a visit for me if you're around then.

Fat ferret, thanks for the pointer to Wealden, duly bookmarked. I know what you mean about not compromising on cutters - found this out early in my metalworking endeavours. Their prices look OK. Would it be upcut spiral bits I need for cutting mortices?
Regards, Rob

 

[RobinBHM]

Hi Rob,
Welcome to the forum

I would suggest a straight router bit, rather than a spiral as these tend to be solid carbide.

Mortice and tenon joints have many applications and are often used in windows, doors, possibly kitchens. However the application and purpose of the m&t joint is different in each case. For example a joint in a window frame is more for location than strength and may or not be glued. However a window sash or a door relies on the large gluing area of a mortice and tenon joint and in fact a window sash is often constructed with a double comb joint for extra strength.

A jig for a router is quite easy to make for mortices. The bulk of the waste can be drilled out before using the router. Also when using a router for deep cuts it is easier to nibble away by plunging on the spot. Trying to push the router in a deep cut is difficult, liable to snatch and puts a lot of strain on both router and bit.

This forum is a great place for advise on projects, its well worth putting a sketch on here for feedback.

 

[Fat ferret]

Just straight plunge cutting bits. I recommend phoning to buy as they will help you decide what you need if you are unsure.

I'm not a "nibbler" as robin puts it. I prefer to cut the mortices by taking about 1/4" each pass untill I get to full depth. Each to their own. I don't go right to the end but leave about 1/8" and cut that square by hand with appropriate chisel.

 

[RobinBHM]

Just straight plunge cutting bits. I recommend phoning to buy as they will help you decide what you need if you are unsure.

I'm not a "nibbler" as robin puts it. I prefer to cut the mortices by taking about 1/4" each pass untill I get to full depth. Each to their own. I don't go right to the end but leave about 1/8" and cut that square by hand with appropriate chisel.

Theres a surprise! One would assume a Fat Ferret to be a nibbler

 

[Jacob]

...
Jacob - I'm obviously going blind as well as deaf, can't see a PM button. No matter, my daughter is home for the holiday, she'll see it and roll her eyes in that 'you poor stupid old man' way. I'll get in touch somehow - Monday should be good for a visit for me if you're around then....

Bob - I've just sent a PM. Should show on the right of your screen under USER TOOLS - new messages

 

[Rhossydd]

I'm obviously going blind as well as deaf, can't see a PM button

You won't, being such a new member. I think you need 3 or 5 posts before the PM system is available to you.
Jacob should know better than to proffer the idea of a newcomer using the PM system. In time you'll discover our Jacob has some views that aren't always particularly popular here.