Hand Saw Sharpening.

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Ian Kirby, with whom I'm sure our American friends are familiar, has famously commented on how tenon saws do not easily remove thier own waste. I'm not saying any if this has dramatic consequences, but every little helps. I find it absurd for anyone not to get the best from their tools if it is in their power. When you sharpen your own saws then it makes little or no difference to add slope. If there is a small advantage gained when actually sawing by adding slope, then where is the problem. After all, the saws exist to be sawn with, not sharpened. So when it does have to be done, it might as well be done to maximise sawing efficiency, even by a degree.

Hybrid tooth pattern saws are very popular. For tenons, I have a rip and a crosscut that I use in tandem. If I had only one saw it would be a hybrid. A crosscut for cutting the tenon cheeks is not nice IMO. A very sharp rip is a bit grabby for the shoulder cuts. I'm practiced enough to make these cuts with a light touch, (and a deep knife line to stop blowout)) but inexperienced people find that very difficult. A hybrid is a good compromise.

Mike.

 

[Trafalgar]

I love Ian Kirby. I've quoted him many times myself and he's dispensed so much sound advice over his entire career that it would be impossible to catalog it all. However in this instance I think he vastly overstates the issue. He does indeed advise one to stop and blow dust out of both tenon and dovetail cuts if these start to wander or actually even before this happens. I don't recall him suggesting alterations to the saw itself as a preventative measure, but I could be wrong. I would submit that if cuts are wandering there are at least four or more other things that are likely the culprit rather than the saw teeth riding on a bed of dust that isn't being ejected to the point the plate is being deflected off the desired cut line, and this force is beyond that which can be overcome by the sawyer in such relatively short cuts. I appreciate the extreme degree of precision he brings to the craft, and maybe with a certain species or two he may have a minor point, but I think it fails to rise to a broad assertion that applies to anything except a few rare cases and perhaps not even then.

In other words, if one's tenon and dovetail cuts are lousy sawdust build up in the kerf is likely way down the list of likely culprits.

Kirby gets a well-earned mulligan on this one.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Perhaps if Ian Kirby had some slope on his saw, he might have found it unnecessary to blow out the sawdust from tenon cuts!! Kidding of course, I don't think Ian needs my advice.

What I do remember, though is, when I first tried to cut tenon cheeks it was not a pleasant experience. I only realised many years later, that the saw I used was a crosscut. It was my dad's, a brass backed 12 inch, 13 tpi tenon saw, so I thought it would cut tenons, logically enough. So I revisit hand tool tenon making and I get a rip cut tenon saw; what!!! Suddenly I can cut them straight, quickly and to the marked line. OK my first attempts were when I was a kid and later I was older with more hand tool hours behind me, so there should be an expected improvement. But not enough to explain all of the difference.

So now here I am, sort of teaching woodwork in school. A lad (12 YOA) recently wanted to try making something with M&T joinery. We are using a school supplied hardpoint tenon saw. I demo how, it works OK and I leave him to carry on. He isn't the most dexterous boy, but he is reasonably keen and tries several times over the course of a few sessions. TBH I'm not hopeful of improvement to make a reasonable working joint, but patience, let us keep trying. So I bring in my pair of saws and tell him to cut the cheeks with the rip saw. Night and day difference in the first attempt. I actually heard him say ' wow' after the first stroke.

Now if the speed of cutting helped, ( less strokes means less chance of wandering) then the rip saw, with its better ejection of sawdust proves superior to the bog standard hardpoint. Logically, if adding slope to a saw that is optimised for crosscutting, makes it eject sawdust like a ripsaw, then it must be better, if only a bit better.

Mike.

 

[Trafalgar]

Nothing wrong with using a rip anything. All saws are easier to sharpen as rip saws and a rip tooth will push sawdust out better than a crosscut tooth obviating the need for sloped gullets, if one believes these do all that much in the first place (which I don't).

What makes a saw a joy to use is a dead straight plate with un-pitted sharp teeth with as close to a perfectly even tooth line as is humanly possible. Everything else is nibbling at the margins. If you need a faster cut, use a coarser saw (crosscut or rip, up to the user). Pretty simple.

 

[D_W]

Hello,

Perhaps if Ian Kirby had some slope on his saw, he might have found it unnecessary to blow out the sawdust from tenon cuts!! Kidding of course, I don't think Ian needs my advice.

What I do remember, though is, when I first tried to cut tenon cheeks it was not a pleasant experience. I only realised many years later, that the saw I used was a crosscut. It was my dad's, a brass backed 12 inch, 13 tpi tenon saw, so I thought it would cut tenons, logically enough. So I revisit hand tool tenon making and I get a rip cut tenon saw; what!!! Suddenly I can cut them straight, quickly and to the marked line. OK my first attempts were when I was a kid and later I was older with more hand tool hours behind me, so there should be an expected improvement. But not enough to explain all of the difference.

So now here I am, sort of teaching woodwork in school. A lad (12 YOA) recently wanted to try making something with M&T joinery. We are using a school supplied hardpoint tenon saw. I demo how, it works OK and I leave him to carry on. He isn't the most dexterous boy, but he is reasonably keen and tries several times over the course of a few sessions. TBH I'm not hopeful of improvement to make a reasonable working joint, but patience, let us keep trying. So I bring in my pair of saws and tell him to cut the cheeks with the rip saw. Night and day difference in the first attempt. I actually heard him say ' wow' after the first stroke.

Now if the speed of cutting helped, ( less strokes means less chance of wandering) then the rip saw, with its better ejection of sawdust proves superior to the bog standard hardpoint. Logically, if adding slope to a saw that is optimised for crosscutting, makes it eject sawdust like a ripsaw, then it must be better, if only a bit better.

Mike.

The difference between the two isn't ejection of sawdust, it's that the crosscut saw rasps in end grain.

 

[D_W]

Hello,

Perhaps if Ian Kirby had some slope on his saw, he might have found it unnecessary to blow out the sawdust from tenon cuts!! Kidding of course, I don't think Ian needs my advice.

What I do remember, though is, when I first tried to cut tenon cheeks it was not a pleasant experience. I only realised many years later, that the saw I used was a crosscut. It was my dad's, a brass backed 12 inch, 13 tpi tenon saw, so I thought it would cut tenons, logically enough. So I revisit hand tool tenon making and I get a rip cut tenon saw; what!!! Suddenly I can cut them straight, quickly and to the marked line. OK my first attempts were when I was a kid and later I was older with more hand tool hours behind me, so there should be an expected improvement. But not enough to explain all of the difference.

So now here I am, sort of teaching woodwork in school. A lad (12 YOA) recently wanted to try making something with M&T joinery. We are using a school supplied hardpoint tenon saw. I demo how, it works OK and I leave him to carry on. He isn't the most dexterous boy, but he is reasonably keen and tries several times over the course of a few sessions. TBH I'm not hopeful of improvement to make a reasonable working joint, but patience, let us keep trying. So I bring in my pair of saws and tell him to cut the cheeks with the rip saw. Night and day difference in the first attempt. I actually heard him say ' wow' after the first stroke.

Now if the speed of cutting helped, ( less strokes means less chance of wandering) then the rip saw, with its better ejection of sawdust proves superior to the bog standard hardpoint. Logically, if adding slope to a saw that is optimised for crosscutting, makes it eject sawdust like a ripsaw, then it must be better, if only a bit better.

Mike.

The difference between the two isn't ejection of sawdust, it's that the crosscut saw rasps in end grain.

 

[swagman]

The following photo shows the same crosscut hand saw being used today on multiple cuts through long grain. Sloped Gullets offer a faster rate of saw cut to the user.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Perhaps if Ian Kirby had some slope on his saw, he might have found it unnecessary to blow out the sawdust from tenon cuts!! Kidding of course, I don't think Ian needs my advice.

What I do remember, though is, when I first tried to cut tenon cheeks it was not a pleasant experience. I only realised many years later, that the saw I used was a crosscut. It was my dad's, a brass backed 12 inch, 13 tpi tenon saw, so I thought it would cut tenons, logically enough. So I revisit hand tool tenon making and I get a rip cut tenon saw; what!!! Suddenly I can cut them straight, quickly and to the marked line. OK my first attempts were when I was a kid and later I was older with more hand tool hours behind me, so there should be an expected improvement. But not enough to explain all of the difference.

So now here I am, sort of teaching woodwork in school. A lad (12 YOA) recently wanted to try making something with M&T joinery. We are using a school supplied hardpoint tenon saw. I demo how, it works OK and I leave him to carry on. He isn't the most dexterous boy, but he is reasonably keen and tries several times over the course of a few sessions. TBH I'm not hopeful of improvement to make a reasonable working joint, but patience, let us keep trying. So I bring in my pair of saws and tell him to cut the cheeks with the rip saw. Night and day difference in the first attempt. I actually heard him say ' wow' after the first stroke.

Now if the speed of cutting helped, ( less strokes means less chance of wandering) then the rip saw, with its better ejection of sawdust proves superior to the bog standard hardpoint. Logically, if adding slope to a saw that is optimised for crosscutting, makes it eject sawdust like a ripsaw, then it must be better, if only a bit better.

Mike.

The difference between the two isn't ejection of sawdust, it's that the crosscut saw rasps in end grain.

Hello,

I understand what the crosscut saw is doing, but this is not my point. The crosscut must have similar sized gullets, so it is the cutting action that makes it slow. But if a rip makes a faster cut, hence more accurate, then a rip with bigger gullets is faster again. Larger teeth have bigger gullets, but if slope makes bigger gullets with a finer tooth count, you might get smoother cuts and a faster rate, which is good. No one is saying these things are fabulously different, but if noticeable by the user still significant.

Mike.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Perhaps if Ian Kirby had some slope on his saw, he might have found it unnecessary to blow out the sawdust from tenon cuts!! Kidding of course, I don't think Ian needs my advice.

What I do remember, though is, when I first tried to cut tenon cheeks it was not a pleasant experience. I only realised many years later, that the saw I used was a crosscut. It was my dad's, a brass backed 12 inch, 13 tpi tenon saw, so I thought it would cut tenons, logically enough. So I revisit hand tool tenon making and I get a rip cut tenon saw; what!!! Suddenly I can cut them straight, quickly and to the marked line. OK my first attempts were when I was a kid and later I was older with more hand tool hours behind me, so there should be an expected improvement. But not enough to explain all of the difference.

So now here I am, sort of teaching woodwork in school. A lad (12 YOA) recently wanted to try making something with M&T joinery. We are using a school supplied hardpoint tenon saw. I demo how, it works OK and I leave him to carry on. He isn't the most dexterous boy, but he is reasonably keen and tries several times over the course of a few sessions. TBH I'm not hopeful of improvement to make a reasonable working joint, but patience, let us keep trying. So I bring in my pair of saws and tell him to cut the cheeks with the rip saw. Night and day difference in the first attempt. I actually heard him say ' wow' after the first stroke.

Now if the speed of cutting helped, ( less strokes means less chance of wandering) then the rip saw, with its better ejection of sawdust proves superior to the bog standard hardpoint. Logically, if adding slope to a saw that is optimised for crosscutting, makes it eject sawdust like a ripsaw, then it must be better, if only a bit better.

Mike.

The difference between the two isn't ejection of sawdust, it's that the crosscut saw rasps in end grain.

Hello,

I understand what the crosscut saw is doing, but this is not my point. The crosscut must have similar sized gullets, so it is the cutting action that makes it slow. But if a rip makes a faster cut, hence more accurate, then a rip with bigger gullets is faster again. Larger teeth have bigger gullets, but if slope makes bigger gullets with a finer tooth count, you might get smoother cuts and a faster rate, which is good. No one is saying these things are fabulously different, but if noticeable by the user still significant.

Mike.

 

[Trafalgar]

Hell, why dink around? :wink:

https://www.amazon.com/Lynx-One-Man-Cro ... B0168XNJXW

And it's Sheffield made! American pattern teeth, though...

Moral: file as big a tooth as you think you'll need consistent with the speed at which you'd like to cut in light of the quality of the resulting cut, in the species being cut: as nasty and aggressive as you like, somewhere between the carpenter's standard 8TPI 26" and the one in the photo. Why settle for barely marginal improvement if one has a real need for speed?

 

[Trafalgar]

The following photo shows the same crosscut hand saw being used today on multiple cuts through long grain. Sloped Gullets offer a faster rate of saw cut to the user.

Looks like a job for a rip saw but if it works for you, it's great!

 

[D_W]

The following photo shows the same crosscut hand saw being used today on multiple cuts through long grain. Sloped Gullets offer a faster rate of saw cut to the user.

But slower than a rip saw, so why bother?

 

[swagman]

Attached is the final example of Sloped Gullets I will be posting. Its a Rip Tooth Backsaw being converted to a dedicated Mitre Box Crosscut Tooth (with the addition of 10 degree Sloped Gullets.)

After completing the 2nd run of Sloped Gullets;


Multiple test cuts with the newly profiled teeth. (Excellent results.)


For those that don't feel highly competent at filing a crosscut tooth pattern, your likely to find the addition of sloped gullets way too challenging.

Stewie;

 

[Trafalgar]

I assume we're supposed to feel as if we're missing out on something by not having sloped gullets on our miter box saws. Can you tell us what this would be?

 

[swagman]

The flat vs. sloped gullet argument can be filed along with the assertion that corrugated plane bottoms slide easier over certain species. They probably do, a little, but the difference is so slight that in the grand scheme it matters not a bit. It's compelling when you contemplate that there seems to be a lot less metal in contact with the wood therefore the work should be demonstrably easier. The only problem is that it is not.

Charles; the subject of Sloped Gullets should be of no interest to you.

 

[Trafalgar]

Challenging pretentious and largely useless gew-gaws and overwrought/overbaked nonsense is always of interest to me.

 

[swagman]

I've crosscut 12/4 rough, down to 4/4 rough, North American hardwoods with professionally sharpened saws and noticed no appreciable difference in sloping vs. flat gullets.

Charles; I assume that's the reason you delegate your saw sharpening responsibility to someone else.

 

[Trafalgar]

I do send them out on occasion. I don't fell my own trees, either, generally, though I actually have done so before. I've done it all before for the most part. Makes it easier to decide what to send out or buy instead of make. I've butchered meat and game, raised chickens, still make my own charcuterie, wouldn't buy store-bought puff pastry sheets if you held a gun to my head, lots of things.

 

[D_W]

Attached is the final example of Sloped Gullets I will be posting. Its a Rip Tooth Backsaw being converted to a dedicated Mitre Box Crosscut Tooth (with the addition of 10 degree Sloped Gullets.)

After completing the 2nd run of Sloped Gullets;


Multiple test cuts with the newly profiled teeth. (Excellent results.)


For those that don't feel highly competent at filing a crosscut tooth pattern, your likely to find the addition of sloped gullets way too challenging.

Stewie;

It's hardly more difficult if you have a vise that means. Even if not, it's not that hard. Steele, it seems like you make more tools and assertions of things new to you than necessarily using them for any volume of work. I don't recall you even mentioning that you use hand tools to size the small amount of tool stock that you use.

Charlie, on the other hand, seems to do an appreciable amount of hand work.

I filed a couple of saws slope and didn't see enough reason to continue doing it as I favor the flat vise setup that I have better. I have yet to wish for a faster saw crosscut, and there's nothing more to wish for with a rip saw.

 

[Trafalgar]

Pure, unbridled, woodworking eloquence:

"I have yet to wish for a faster saw crosscut, and there's nothing more to wish for with a rip saw."