Hand planing hardwood - bad idea?

[Molynoox]

Thanks Tom, great advice
I had another go at jointing boards by hand yesterday and I can't really get the two surfaces flat enough that they sit nicely together. Hand planing turns out to be pretty hard. I can get it pretty close but there is maybe a 0.5mm gap at both ends. And if I manage to plane the belly out so its flat then the edge isn't quite 90 and when I fixed that I 'unflat it' and I'm back to the start
The plane is working well now though, so that's no longer the issue.

By the way I'm doing this with a no4 smoothing plane, so I guess I'm making life harder for myself? It's all I have.

Martin

 

[Ttrees]

Hello again

Thanks Tom, great advice
I had another go at jointing boards by hand yesterday and I can't really get the two surfaces flat enough that they sit nicely together.

I just suggested what I think is about the best video if you want to learn the easy way,
especially when it's regarding thinner stock.
I'm sure Custard has some posts touting the benefit of the flat bench.

Many don't suggest doing this, and might suggest a plethora of folks, say Richard Mcguire, or Grahams Face edge channel for example is kinda dedicated to stripping things back to the bare essentials.

Going back to the easy method, should your stock be thin..you'll need something flat.
Guessing you don't have something like that, or you might have mentioned.
I think I suggested earlier that a melamine offcut might show up some high spots on the bench,
being so shiny would spin on a lump (and the fact your top isn't hacked)
Just make sure its flat I suppose, Frank Klausz reckons it's pretty flat when supported correctly.

The offcut would likely be a reliable enough surface to make witness marks on if unsure where
exactly ones timber is touching, should they not have an angle poise to see instead.
Used as is, providing it's sitting flat, or flatten any lumps with a few swipes with a scraper,
A fool proof way might be using graphite or crayon would make it real simple,
Crayon used below which shows up the high spots, i.e the only place needing to plane or scrape off,
Provided your stock isn't so thin and warped that it deflects, you can always be sure you will be able to shaving whatever colour crayon away with any thickness shaving and if not,
something is wrong.

it will teach you how little blade protrusion is needed, and how hungry a light setting can be.
You could do whatever ya liked with that info, i.e make precise beam to flatten the bench,
just do some rough spot work, or whatever,
It's just good for illustration regarding where you need plane...only,
This mindset will stop one from needlessly planing material away which doesn't need be planed,
instead always knowing exactly where one wants to stop and start, once flat,
then Charlesworth's stopped shavings to finish, as there could be the odd lump somewhere.

If you've watched that Cosman video, and make note of those important tell tales I mentioned,
that's the lesson.
If I were to guess there might be quite a few intentional spanners thrown into it, and I do mean after the scrub.
(This all ties in with a cleat, and not a wide dog) to take things up a notch, as one won't
squirm with the thought of checking the work (which is always loose on the bench)
i.e can you see the far side of timber there, you would need be tall.

Hand planing turns out to be pretty hard. I can get it pretty close but there is maybe a 0.5mm gap at both ends. And if I manage to plane the belly out so its flat then the edge isn't quite 90 and when I fixed that I 'unflat it' and I'm back to the start
The plane is working well now though, so that's no longer the issue.

I reckon above is down to either a bump somewhere,
or perhaps technique, for the given material, i.e how much room for error, look up Charlesworth using his fingers as a fence.
If the stock is too thin to plane four sides before gluing up,
Your vice could be deforming the timber if quite thin, and the other face is twisted.

You might have seen a lash up version of a long grain shooting board, think Richard has a video on that, should you be that pressed for thickness.

By the way I'm doing this with a no4 smoothing plane, so I guess I'm making life harder for myself? It's all I have.

Martin

And lastly..
If you've got a flat surface, it's all you need, I've scraped some stuff flat with a no.80
Using the bench like above suits a wee plane, but might take a bit of effort to make something like the beams to check your surface to get started.
If you had a half decent long level, or could borrow one, it would be easier.

Sorry I couldn't make my writings more concise.

 

[Molynoox]

Hello again

I just suggested what I think is about the best video if you want to learn the easy way,
especially when it's regarding thinner stock.
I'm sure Custard has some posts touting the benefit of the flat bench.

Many don't suggest doing this, and might suggest a plethora of folks, say Richard Mcguire, or Grahams Face edge channel for example is kinda dedicated to stripping things back to the bare essentials.

Going back to the easy method, should your stock be thin..you'll need something flat.
Guessing you don't have something like that, or you might have mentioned.
I think I suggested earlier that a melamine offcut might show up some high spots on the bench,
being so shiny would spin on a lump (and the fact your top isn't hacked)
Just make sure its flat I suppose, Frank Klausz reckons it's pretty flat when supported correctly.

The offcut would likely be a reliable enough surface to make witness marks on if unsure where
exactly ones timber is touching, should they not have an angle poise to see instead.
Used as is, providing it's sitting flat, or flatten any lumps with a few swipes with a scraper,
A fool proof way might be using graphite or crayon would make it real simple,
Crayon used below which shows up the high spots, i.e the only place needing to plane or scrape off,
Provided your stock isn't so thin and warped that it deflects, you can always be sure you will be able to shaving whatever colour crayon away with any thickness shaving and if not,
something is wrong.

it will teach you how little blade protrusion is needed, and how hungry a light setting can be.
You could do whatever ya liked with that info, i.e make precise beam to flatten the bench,
just do some rough spot work, or whatever,
It's just good for illustration regarding where you need plane...only,
This mindset will stop one from needlessly planing material away which doesn't need be planed,
instead always knowing exactly where one wants to stop and start, once flat,
then Charlesworth's stopped shavings to finish, as there could be the odd lump somewhere.
View attachment 150112


If you've watched that Cosman video, and make note of those important tell tales I mentioned,
that's the lesson.
If I were to guess there might be quite a few intentional spanners thrown into it, and I do mean after the scrub.
(This all ties in with a cleat, and not a wide dog) to take things up a notch, as one won't
squirm with the thought of checking the work (which is always loose on the bench)
i.e can you see the far side of timber there, you would need be tall.


I reckon above is down to either a bump somewhere,
or perhaps technique, for the given material, i.e how much room for error, look up Charlesworth using his fingers as a fence.
If the stock is too thin to plane four sides before gluing up,
Your vice could be deforming the timber if quite thin, and the other face is twisted.

You might have seen a lash up version of a long grain shooting board, think Richard has a video on that, should you be that pressed for thickness.

By the way I'm doing this with a no4 smoothing plane, so I guess I'm making life harder for myself? It's all I have.

Martin

And lastly..
If you've got a flat surface, it's all you need, I've scraped some stuff flat with a no.80
Using the bench like above suits a wee plane, but might take a bit of effort to make something like the beams to check your surface to get started.
If you had a half decent long level, or could borrow one, it would be easier.

Sorry I couldn't make my writings more concise.

cheers - I have to admit your post on the Cosman video got a little lost at the time because there was a lot of info coming my way and it got a bit buried I meant to go back to it and red through your post again to get my head around it but forgot.
I've just taken a read through it now so I will also watch the video and see how I get on.
I do have some melamine type material I think, and old shelf from a kitchen cupboard - will that do?
I also have a set of levels but they are nothing fancy, just Stanley I think.
I sort of 'assumed' my bench was flat and used it as a reference surface, but I also knew it might not be, I could check it with my levels I guess.
thanks for the help, Ill do some watching and practicing today

Martin

 

[profchris]

Thanks Tom, great advice
I had another go at jointing boards by hand yesterday and I can't really get the two surfaces flat enough that they sit nicely together. Hand planing turns out to be pretty hard. I can get it pretty close but there is maybe a 0.5mm gap at both ends. And if I manage to plane the belly out so its flat then the edge isn't quite 90 and when I fixed that I 'unflat it' and I'm back to the start
The plane is working well now though, so that's no longer the issue.

By the way I'm doing this with a no4 smoothing plane, so I guess I'm making life harder for myself? It's all I have.

Martin

Jointing takes quite a bit of practice. A short plane makes it even harder. Three suggestions:

1. Clamp the boards and plane both mating surfaces together. If you're not planing exactly at 90 degrees they will still match.

2. Plane a slight hollow in the middle of the boards. Then take very fine full length shavings until they fit (a hair's gap in the middle should close with clamping, gaps at the ends won't).

3. Focus on registering the toe of the plane on the board before you start to push it, and at the far end take all the pressure off the toe (even remove that hand). Until I got this right I always took too much off each end, now I usually don't.

 

[Molynoox]

Ok I had a view of the cosman video and that technique was kinda what I was doing already... rocking the board, finding the high spots and planing them out, I think I'm just carp at it
I had another go today and I managed to get the boards almost perfectly flat on the edges, way better than yesterday, so I think that's progress. It's taking a long time and I'm removing so much from the edge that the boards are reducing in size by about 10 or 20mm! But it's getting quicker as I get a feel for things. I appreciate the help, it's moved me forward.

Here is where the boards were after about 30 minutes of effort today, a small gap at one end

Here is where it ended up after planing a hollow in the middle and then running the plane end to end a couple of times

Not perfect but good enough to joint the boards and that technique seems to work for me.

Martin

 

[thetyreman]

this is the best guide I've ever read or seen on jointing: How To Edge Joint

 

[Ttrees]

Things are looking promising
You know now that the edges/perimeter of the work are of much importance,
There's a lot of emphasis regarding this in Charlesworth's youtubes.
The edge joint exercise is referred to as "stopped shavings"

I've often said watching Charlesworth's stuff, on can take so much from it,
regarding how to check things, honesty, accuracy,
and the importance of reference, whether that be your work
or for making tools.

Going back to the principals of flat, and some quotes from Charlesworth
which I won't quite quote, but I'll give me jist of it.

Flatness doesn't exist in the real world, we either have slight hollows or slight bumps ...
I can do nothing with a bump, he mentions a square will adopt two completely
different positions on a furniture component,
It just so happens that I like slight hollows compared to slight bumps,
as the work will sit without rocking.

You might see similar on his other videos.
The takeaway from it is to be sure of anything, we must have some way of checking.
Hinging/pivoting from an end is a good indication that there is a hollow,
It is measurable, (if one wanted to), Charlesworth's videos are demonstrating this,
its for educational purposes, and not work practice.

Point being....
If it were the opposite, and the timber were crowned (this goes for all orientations of the work)
Then the straight edge/winding stick wouldn't be able to sit on each end of the work,
or if you use the bench, the timber wouldn't sit flat.

These slight hollows can be very very little, if you watch Charlesworth.

Good to know you have the means to make things flat.
Once again I will mention the apparently non existent angle poise lamp in your workshop,
It's lovely and bright, and very possibly deceivingly good enough.
(this could be why you're not using a straight edge to shine light underneath)

With an angle poise lamp you can see a whole lot of whats going on compared being dependent on sunlight.
You could be making a big shadow while you stand over the bench in the evening, and can't see that all important sliver of light if so, and likewise for work on the bench, and so on.


Just to let you know if you've made those panels thinner, (it would appear so to me),
Then you will have to plane both faces due to the work deflecting, and the thinner you go,
the more noticeable a bump would be.
You might see folks seemingly doing only one face, but chances are they're not attempting to
make these sit loosely flat on their own, and instead are wrangled into a groove to flatten it.

Best to learn with thicker stuff so you can concentrate on planing one face, and getting that flat,
as if the underside of the work is deforming with thin stuff, then you're plane won't cut at a shallow depth,
giving one the impression they must advance the cutter.

Cheerio
Tom

 

[Ttrees]

Just to emphasize the lamp, if your light source is above your head,
then you'll not really be able to check things with a light source very easily,
and not very much at all if planing thin pieces, doing things by the flat bench method,
should you decide on that, (seemingly you don't have much scraps to play with, or if you do, there's not much leeway for error regarding thickness)
hence my suggestion of having something flat like the melamine to plane on,
or if loathing of that idea, to see if it can spot something where your planing, or infact burnish (polish) or even mark the high spots in the bench with crayon or graphite

Be a good idea to obviously check both sides to see if there's a bow,
(once again emphasis on the cupped side down for stability, and it'll likely settle flatter if so)
The same could be done with a level, flipping it over to see if the hinging appears from the same spots, or if things are the opposite, it might not be accurate, but it's consistent.

If it is somewhat accurate
This can be made easier again, Mike G had a photo of that,
i.e using graphite over the level to rub on the clean grit free bench and it'll show up high spots, Mike seemingly wouldn't suggest doing such faffery to your bench.
Depending on the length of your straight edge, sorry,spirit level,
it might be the route I'd take just to scrape out a hump like in my crayon picture,,
so you can use the bench, or the melamine to plane thin stuff which will deflect.
Deflection sorted on thin stuff with shallow cuts only where needed and getting the worst of things on both faces, before working flat one side, leave that if you can for later if you can.


If you can't see the far edge of the panel doing so, i.e where the work is touching,
then its the same thing as having winding sticks and not paying attention to a bump in the middle.
Hopefully you have the work closer to you since,
Another reason to add, that one must look at the ends of the work to see the material thickness is even to begin with, and when not starting at the widest, and always keeping an eye on this.
Your wedged shaped pieces may not be helping matters here either.

I was looking for a photo of a winding stick or long plane being used to check flatness with backlighting shining at the camera/craftsmans eyes, but the cameras don't like it, so that's why it's not too apparent on the telly.

Same thing with edges needing a light source behind the tool

This looks about the best deal I've seen regarding the light.
It's quite difficult to find angle poise lamps.

 

[Molynoox]

Jointing takes quite a bit of practice. A short plane makes it even harder. Three suggestions:

1. Clamp the boards and plane both mating surfaces together. If you're not planing exactly at 90 degrees they will still match.

2. Plane a slight hollow in the middle of the boards. Then take very fine full length shavings until they fit (a hair's gap in the middle should close with clamping, gaps at the ends won't).

3. Focus on registering the toe of the plane on the board before you start to push it, and at the far end take all the pressure off the toe (even remove that hand). Until I got this right I always took too much off each end, now I usually don't.

Points 2 and 3 really helped today

On point 3 I'm still taking off more on the end of the board for some reason, I'm even totally letting go of the plane at the front but it's still taking off a mm more than everywhere else. I'm actually wondering if the plane is not flat out something.

It's probably me though.

Martin

 

[profchris]

Points 2 and 3 really helped today

On point 3 I'm still taking off more on the end of the board for some reason, I'm even totally letting go of the plane at the front but it's still taking off a mm more than everywhere else. I'm actually wondering if the plane is not flat out something.

It's probably me though.

Martin

Probably you I've been there, still go there from time to time.

When you relax/let go your front hand, focus on keeping down pressure at the back of the plane until you feel the board disappear from under it, and only then lift it up.

I think what happens is that your brain sees the toe reach the end of the board, thinks "job done" and so relaxes your hand and arm. Result, you lift too early, tilt forward and snip the end off the board. Each stroke then follows that path, curving the end gradually downwards.

Seemed to work for me, worth a try.

 

[imageel]

Hi Martin, lots of good advice in this thread and it looks like you've learnt a lot already! - practice will help you improve your technique and it looks like you are getting pretty close to perfection - or whatever you consider 'good enough'!
As others have said edge planing on thin stock is paradoxically harder to do accurately because it's so easy to use an overly aggressive set on the plane, I would recommend using as small a set as possible and in that way you can concentrate on holding the plane square and applying an even pressure along the entire length of the workpiece and as others have mentioned, using your fingers/hand as a guide can help you control it further.
As you've discovered keeping the blade sharp is paramount and its no less important for edge work where it along with the other techniques mentioned in this thread will allow you to exercise far more control and hence accuracy along the length of the cut.
Also as other have mentioned, having a slightly concave fit is fine - any small gaps will close up when you glue and clamp up
Keep practicing!!
Ed

 

[Molynoox]

Things are looking promising
You know now that the edges/perimeter of the work are of much importance,
There's a lot of emphasis regarding this in Charlesworth's youtubes.
The edge joint exercise is referred to as "stopped shavings"

I've often said watching Charlesworth's stuff, on can take so much from it,
regarding how to check things, honesty, accuracy,
and the importance of reference, whether that be your work
or for making tools.

Going back to the principals of flat, and some quotes from Charlesworth
which I won't quite quote, but I'll give me jist of it.

Flatness doesn't exist in the real world, we either have slight hollows or slight bumps ...
I can do nothing with a bump, he mentions a square will adopt two completely
different positions on a furniture component,
It just so happens that I like slight hollows compared to slight bumps,
as the work will sit without rocking.

You might see similar on his other videos.
The takeaway from it is to be sure of anything, we must have some way of checking.
Hinging/pivoting from an end is a good indication that there is a hollow,
It is measurable, (if one wanted to), Charlesworth's videos are demonstrating this,
its for educational purposes, and not work practice.

Point being....
If it were the opposite, and the timber were crowned (this goes for all orientations of the work)
Then the straight edge/winding stick wouldn't be able to sit on each end of the work,
or if you use the bench, the timber wouldn't sit flat.

These slight hollows can be very very little, if you watch Charlesworth.

Good to know you have the means to make things flat.
Once again I will mention the apparently non existent angle poise lamp in your workshop,
It's lovely and bright, and very possibly deceivingly good enough.
(this could be why you're not using a straight edge to shine light underneath)

With an angle poise lamp you can see a whole lot of whats going on compared being dependent on sunlight.
You could be making a big shadow while you stand over the bench in the evening, and can't see that all important sliver of light if so, and likewise for work on the bench, and so on.


Just to let you know if you've made those panels thinner, (it would appear so to me),
Then you will have to plane both faces due to the work deflecting, and the thinner you go,
the more noticeable a bump would be.
You might see folks seemingly doing only one face, but chances are they're not attempting to
make these sit loosely flat on their own, and instead are wrangled into a groove to flatten it.

Best to learn with thicker stuff so you can concentrate on planing one face, and getting that flat,
as if the underside of the work is deforming with thin stuff, then you're plane won't cut at a shallow depth,
giving one the impression they must advance the cutter.

Cheerio
Tom

I'll check out Charlesworth and report back
On the lamp I do have a torch I could use and see how I get on with that first, but the IKEA one seems pretty good value so might be worth me picking one up.

Martin

 

[Jacob]

I'll check out Charlesworth and report back
On the lamp I do have a torch I could use and see how I get on with that first, but the IKEA one seems pretty good value so might be worth me picking one up.

Martin

I have Anglepoises in various places around the building but they have one major disadvantage - they only are useful if you are relatively immobile - sitting at a desk, or working on one small area, whether it's fiddling with dovetails or reading a book.
In the workshop I find them difficult to work with as you end up having to move and adjust every few minutes. If you really need a localised but mobile light the obvious answer is a head torch, which moves with you!
I only realised this recently when I bought a new one and started using it, much more than I expected.
But more important is having a high level of diffuse light over the whole shop - fluorescent tubes or their modern equivalents.
Another useful occasional light is a high power site lamp on a stand. Mine's an inherited studio lamp with a 500w incandescent tube, which also gives off a nice level of background heat - brilliant for polishing/painting etc and helps it dry.
I mounted an anglepoise on a stand - thought it was a good idea but it doesn't get used - it ends up in the way.
So that's 3 options; bright diffused overall lighting, head torch, very bright mobile site lamp.

 

[Molynoox]

Just watched the charlesworth video on planing an edge link
Loving it.
It did make me laugh when he was feeding cigarette papers underneath his straight edge - a world away from me

 

[Jacob]

Just watched the charlesworth video on planing an edge link
Loving it.
It did make me laugh when he was feeding cigarette papers underneath his straight edge - a world away from me

I can't watch him for too long - it's over-thinking to a very high degree. Careful elaborate solutions to things which, er, aren't really a problem. As we see from much of this thread!
One useful thing to remember with edge or other demanding forms of planing, is that woodwork basically is all about removing waste, usually to a line.
I think of it as the "Angela" principle as she spelled it out years ago on this forum.
So it's a question of deciding where the line should go, to identify the planing finishing point with the line still in place. And/or you can mark the waste itself and plane by removing these marks.
So a convex edge needs a straight line joining the low points, or marks across the high parts to be planed off, or marks on the low parts to be left behind and everything else to be planed off.
I suppose that would need a demo! Might have a go one fine day.

 

[Hornbeam]

I am a big fan of David Charlesworth approach but also agree with Jacob (is that bad? am I now doomed?) that he comes across as overcomplicating things
However having seen some of his demonstrations he just went through everything in such meticulous detail that it takes far longer to explain everything than to do it. One recommendation I would make is to keep the plane clear of shavings when you start so yo can actually see which part of the blade is cutting

 

[Jacob]

.....One recommendation I would make is to keep the plane clear of shavings when you start so yo can actually see which part of the blade is cutting

....and pull them out of the throat before you start the next stroke.
One of the most unnecessary of Dave C's vids was this about Odate Crowning Plates
I think the idea has been discretely forgotten in the meantime, but it made me laugh - not least because I've been extolling the virtues of hollowed or dished sharpening stones, for years, only to be met with sarcasm and abuse!
Spend £300 or more instead!
Good job I've got a thick skin.

 

[Ttrees]

I'll check out Charlesworth and report back
On the lamp I do have a torch I could use and see how I get on with that first, but the IKEA one seems pretty good value so might be worth me picking one up.

Martin

Hello again
A head torch is no good, you need something which can shine the light at you for lots of reasons,
and something which has a decent sized shade and not a wee 6" bedside lamp.

My lamp is able to illuminate the 7 foot bench without base needing to be moved from its location.
and goes hand in hand with the flat bench method for planing,
as you cannot really see the back of the work otherwise,
unless you had a long mirror in the tool well possibly.

I'm not sure if those lamps are quite as long reach as the old ones, which can sometimes be got
for a steal, since they're super awkward when frequently missing the bases.

The lamp is not just for candling or matching in this regards.
Not sure how you're going about checking along the width otherwise,
and likewise along the length.

You might see folks sneering regarding Charlesworth's teaching aids.
Bear in mind what you wish to do is bordering more skilled use,
i.e planing thin stuff and aiming to have individual pieces which are surfaced precisely,
a lot of what is not considered traditional nor efficient.

If you've only got what material you have, then you might not find much trad stuff which is
addressing the work that is needed.

One more thing, not sure what camber profile you have chosen, i.e how wide is the shaving
when smoothing is,
If not wishing to have much camber, then one must overhang the plane off the edge substantially more than Charlesworth or others suggest.

Can do it differently, but that way relies on thick or multiple shavings and is a process which is wasteful.

 

[Molynoox]

I made a thing.
Due to the ridiculous amount of shavings removed from the edges it's no longer big enough for a chopping board. But it's definitely more useful than scrap wood which is what I started with. So I'm happy with it. Thanks for the assistance

Here is the pile of shame

I originally put a chamfer on the underside and a tiny round over on the top which looked great but unfortunately I did it upside down and the good surface was on bottom. Duuuh. So I had to convert the chamfer on bottom to a large round over on top. Not great but not a disasster.

Suitable for serving very long and thin items such as sausages, bread sticks and cucumbers
Martin

 

[HOJ]

In view of the fact you have A plane and a piece of sandpaper, well done for perseverance and application, whats next on the list?.