Hand-cut looking machine-made

[Paul Kierstead]

But another thing has caught my eye - why d'you want a stopped groove in a drawer side anyway?

A while back I asked how on earth you *efficiently* make a stopped groove/dado with hand-tools, where efficiently related to the past makers being able to eke out a living. The answer was (in my abbreviated version): "don't". It still remains one of the most enlightening answers I have ever received w.r.t. hand tools.

PK

Doctor, it hurts when I hit my head on the wall, what should I do?

 

[Alf]

Heck, Paul, that's dangerously back on topic... :shock: :lol:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Anonymous]

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[engineer one]

hi alf to get back to topic, hand cutting lap joints in 4x2
is probably the most difficult job i have done recently.

next time machine work i think.

paul :wink:

 

[Chris Knight]

Jacob,
You only have to look at George Ellis's "Modern Practical Joinery" to appreciate the extraordinary (by today's standards) level of expertise expected of joiners. I love the staircase geometry stuff for example.

Also as you have mentioned, the very practical but rather complicated design of sash windows to stop water ingress. Absolutely marvellous examples of ingenuity.

Equally, as Paul has noted, you can look at the hidden bits of an antique and wonder if they had anything to do with the people whho made the show bits.

 

[Anonymous]

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[David C]

Alf,

If bored why not try the stopped, tapered, sliding dovetail joint, as described in Joyce. This was one of the joints I got taught when training. Surprisingly not that difficult to do with just large chisel, plane, tennon saw and router plane, plus possibly side rebate plane.

Years later decided to try this with router, and ended up using two. This is described in Book 1, page 81.

Position in job dictates whether one or two dovetail sides are appropriate.
In my view two would be wrong for a shelf as one will see down into the shoulder of the top dovetail.

I dislike the carelessly chosen router bit with too steep a slope as this does weaken the component.

Hayward splendid as ever!

Best wishes,
David Charlesworth

 

[Alf]

Position in job dictates whether one or two dovetail sides are appropriate. In my view two would be wrong for a shelf as one will see down into the shoulder of the top dovetail.

Ahhhh, now that's something I hadn't considered at all, that there's a time and a place for one or the other. Good point.

Hayward splendid as ever!

Mais oui!

Cheers, Alf

 

[Anonymous]

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[David C]

Will have to disagree, though your logic is fine.

Check Ernest Joyce or any other reputable text book.

David

 

[Alf]

Interestingly Hasluck's The Handyman's book (1903) shows it angled side up, while Jones' The Practical Woodworker (c.1920) is angle side down. Hayward is unwaveringly angle down as seem to be other references until they start making them angled on both sides. I'm all out of older references than Hasluck unfortunately

Cheers, Alf

 

[Anonymous]

David CharlesWorth..... that pommy bloke who wrote a book or two on woodwork ? The hairy looking bloke who made a barn into a workshop....I think I've got his book somewhere lying about covered in dust :wink:

no. Good book. I like the way he thinks. Pinched a couple of his ideas and call them my own. :lol: :wink:

 

[MikeW]

Hmm. I think I've left off this thread for a reason...don't really know what that reason is...

I've only seen single-tailed--single angle--DT joints housed as in Alf's pics where the angled tail is up in timber framed construction. When I've seen it down, it is always on furniture.

I think there are two reasons I can see for the difference. First is there is a loading difference. A timber frame has the greatest load applied vertically. One would not really desire for the angled portion to be on the bottom as it would be extremely weak. On case goods such as a bookshelf, the load is not only vertical, but the racking forces the light construction a bookshelf system has inherently.

To me, that argues for a double, full sliding DT, but I'm not certain this is necessary except on very wide free-standing work.

Second, is the aesthetic David mentions as regards a rebated shelf. Unless it fits both in height and depth precisely, one would see the shoulder of the DT. Cut for a proper fit, I'm not sure this is a real concern.

My only reason for using a sliding DT in free-standing cases such as tall/wide bookshelves is to help prevent the sides from possibly bowing outward and or to control the racking forces. To me the added strength of the shelf proper that a sliding DT over say a rebated shelf fixed with screws or dowels through the sides is just inherent in the mechanical difference.

So what am I adding to this discourse? Not certain...

Take care, Mike
in need of more coffee...

 

[deirdre]

To me, that argues for a double, full sliding DT, but I'm not certain this is necessary except on very wide free-standing work.

Honestly, until David mentioned it, it simply had never occurred to me that one might want only one side dovetailed, quite possibly because I learned machine tools first and consequently made all my sliding dovetails doubled.

I see his point, though, and for the applications I was considering a sliding dovetail for, a bottom-only angled joint does make sense (in part because I'm not that good yet and the allure of a better-looking joint calls).

 

[Chris Knight]

This mention of weakness supposes that the tail is rather larger than I ever make them. I find that a tail about 4-5mm long is plenty for a light carcase and the reduction in thickness at the root is not very much in terms of compromising the strength of the board.

 

[Alf]

Honestly, until David mentioned it

Erm... it was sort of the starting point of the thread... :wink:

Mike, you have indeed added to the discourse 'cos it's made me go back, check, and yes, both the examples I mention above are in furniture, fwiw. Anyone know if Roubo covers it? Moxon? Might as well tidy up the historical precedence if we can, huh?

Cheers, Alf

 

[deirdre]

Honestly, until David mentioned it

Erm... it was sort of the starting point of the thread... :wink:

Yes, but somehow I got logged out and kept looking for days, seeing no new messages, then suddenly I discovered I'd missed entire threads, so I started reading the messages out of order (not knowing where I'd last read from).

I'm tired, it's been dreadfully hot here (it was 41C Saturday, and only a bit cooler Sunday), so I'm a bit befuddled.

 

[David C]

Deirdre,

I do not do well with heat. When mercury goes over 70 degrees F, I find it unpleasant, sticky paw prints on steel tools and timber........

We are having a heatwave in UK. though in coastal Devon, the effects are ameliorated by the sea. We get 30 deg C and London gets 38 C.

Have no idea how you cope with 41 deg ......

David

 

[deirdre]

I do not do well with heat. When mercury goes over 70 degrees F, I find it unpleasant, sticky paw prints on steel tools and timber........

We are having a heatwave in UK. though in coastal Devon, the effects are ameliorated by the sea. We get 30 deg C and London gets 38 C.

Have no idea how you cope with 41 deg ......

David,

I've always wanted to visit Devon (and Cornwall), but the closest I've been is Bristol.

For heat, I can manage up to about 80F(26C), but after that I'm at serious risk for heat exhaustion and heat stroke.

How do I cope with 41F? I didn't. I spent a good chunk of the day elsewhere. Today it was 91F, except that I had a job interview in a nearby town that was 108 (41C) and due to rolling blackouts, their elevator had gone out (so I had to walk up to the third floor using an outside staircase), and of course their air conditioning had gone off, meaning I had an hour-and-a-half job interview in the wilting heat. They should hire me just for the dedication of being there.

The other night when it was so hot, we said to some friends that we were going to a movie "to cool off." After we returned, one of the friends asked, "So how was 'An Inconvenient Truth'?" It took until the next day before I realized he was being funny. Of course I didn't see a film about global warming on the hottest day of the year....

Still, 30 degrees is very, very hot for Devon.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Have no idea how you cope with 41 deg ......

David

That is about average for summer in Perth! Many days around 43 degrees C. I guess it is all in the level of humidity. Here it is very low, around 10% or less, so the heat is dry. I do not have any problem with tools rusting inspite of living near the Swan River. By comparison Sydney summers (where I lived 18 years ago) are in the high 20s (Centigrade) but with very high humidity. Not pleasant at all. What I find hard to handle is the cold. We have had little rain this winter with clear skies and sunshine - but it gets to about 15-18 degrees (Centigrade) and around 3 degrees in the morning and at night. Try holding a chisel wearing mittens!

I have spent much of my life surfing and windsurfing but I just could not imagine doing so in the UK. Do you still surf?

Regards from Perth

Derek