Hand-cut looking machine-made

[Alf]

I've been thinking - no, don't run away yet! Anyway, I've been thinking about dovetails and particularly dovetail housings. Possibly prompted by a bit of joinery I saw up in Kent earlier this month (scroll down a bit here). You often hear folks taking about London pattern and other fine-pin dovetails "showing it's hand cut", but no-one as far as I know mentions dovetail housings.

A brief and unscientific flick through some of my books shows a pretty consistant showing of dovetail housings with only one angled side. Now to me that makes a lot of sense; they're hand cut, it's a lot trickier to fine tune a joint with two sloping sides and so forth. Presumably it's more than adequate for the task too? But these days, when the likes of Derek and Jake come up with astoundingly fine examples of hand cut sliding dovetails, they're apparently universally sloped on both sides.

So a few questions, musings, call them what you will.

1. Is there any structural advantage to having a "full" sliding dovetail over a "half", and if yes, is it actually needed?

2. Have we fallen once more into the pit of trying to make hand tool-made stuff look machine-made? Be interested to hear from Jake and Derek if they even gave it a thought. Of course it may be that folks actually prefer the looks of the full dovetail?

3. Should dovetail housings also be done the old-fashioned, a-machine-can't-do-that-way in order to claim "bragging rights"? Discuss.

4. Any other joints skulling about that have been re-thought to make it easy for machinery that we should be reclaiming for hand tools? The stopped groove has always struck as something that's very much a machine task that hand toolers try desperately to replicate instead of going back to the fundamentals, but that's a bit of a different case.

Anyway, I toss out these ramblings just to prove hand tool use doesn't mean you're purely tool fixated. Just about 99.9%... :wink:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Chris Knight]

Alf,
A sort of quarter answer - to your point 1.

I think a full dovetail will resist racking better when assembling a piece and since I use sliding dovetails to hold some carcases together before they are glued (eg bookshelves) making it easier for one pair of hands to do the assembly, this is an issue for me. I must say I have never tried a single sided dovetail in place of the full job so can't say for sure.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Is there any structural advantage to having a "full" sliding dovetail over a "half", and if yes, is it actually needed?

Hi Alf

The only reason I cut double-sided sliding dovetails is because the symetry looks nicer. I see no reason why these should not be asymetrical. Certainly, they would be quicker and easier to cut this way.

Here is the housing sequence:

Any other joints skulling about that have been re-thought to make it easy for machinery that we should be reclaiming for hand tools? The stopped groove has always struck as something that's very much a machine task that hand toolers try desperately to replicate instead of going back to the fundamentals, but that's a bit of a different case.

Stopped grooves, as in drawer grooves for through dovetails, are fairly straight forward with a chisel and a router plane. In fact, I find these easier and quicker to do this way than with a 'tailed router.

Any other joints that are supposedly difficult to do with hand tools?

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Alf]

I was starting to worry that I represented that 0.01% of non-tool obsessive neander, which would be a concern indeed... :lol:

Derek, I think you miss my point, primarily 'cos I didn't make it! #-o Yes, you can make a stopped groove with hand tools - but as you demonstrate, it's a multi-step job. Most (all?) common tasks seem to have dedicated tools for the job, developed to speed up the process. Where are the bullnose ploughs to solve this? Rare beasts indeed. Stopped grooves are barely mentioned at all until fairly recently, iirc, but I haven't honestly looked. Why aren't we doing what used to be done? Mitred corners, applied mouldings? Well maybe forget mouldings 'cos a lot of their absence is simply down to the preferred style of work these days, so fair enough. But I conjecture that we're busy making them stopped 'cos that what machines have taught us. It's easier to do that than do mitred corners on a dovetail joint with a router, after all. It's right up there with cutting finger/box joints by hand, I reckon.

But another thing has caught my eye - why d'you want a stopped groove in a drawer side anyway? No, put that another way. I have no objection to you doing it (big of me, eh? :roll: ) but thinking about traditional drawer making, they simply didn't have the need 'cos they didn't do it that way. But with a router you can, so it gets into the psyche as a thing to do and we end up trying to do it with the wrong tools (so to speak). Which is kinda what I suppose I'm partially driving at. I know - very badly...

But really I'm just bored out of my skull, it's like an oven in the workshop and there's zip all going on in the various fora, so I thought I'd try and get some discussion going.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Anonymous]

Interesting stuff Alf (and nice links)

1. I would say yes to structural advantage if there is a varying load, e.g. drawers (both shoulders tight against other piece). No if the construction is a frame etc. where the DT is in the upper portion and the force is downwards thus keeping the lower part of the joint in place and the upper under tension against the slope of the cut.

Have we fallen once more into the pit of trying to make hand tool-made stuff look machine-made?

2. I really, really, really, really hope not :shock:
I prefer the look of full DTs (especially Houndstooth ) and I guess most of us do.

3. I guess bragging rights are all one gets for hand-cut these days. Well, that and the satisfaction of craftmanship and the creation of something beautiful that few can emulate. Making machine made joints often leaves me cold.

4. My lovely #45 is the main tool of choice for slots in drawer sides these days but the router does the rest :wink:

Long live the neanderthal :lol:

 

[engineer one]

i was going to post a new topic, but this actually gives me a chance to
admit to my failings as woodworker, and bring my view on these things.

my saga is that i am building these things into an alcove.
two display/bookcase units, plus a shelf for my computer, and then
underneath mobile storage to allow more effective cleaning.

i am using the veneered mdf jason let me have, and all that talk about
face frames which i will build in a slightly different way, mainly due to my
not having built them before.

anyway i have easily made and stuck the bookcases/display units up, not yet framed round them. and thinking carefully, i have decided that
the working surface for the computer will be mounted on top of some 3x2's which are to line the alcove. mean and dirty, but effective.

i am taking my time, not just because of the heat, but also
pacing my self to not strain the old ticker. spent some time over the
weekend making half lapped joints at the corners of the alcove
supports.

that's when it hit me, as others have said, half lap joints in thick
section if you don't practice are difficult to get right. also making
sure you cut the right bits in the right order.

i don't hand saw enough, where do you at a certain age, get the time
and the experience to hand saw. but thought not to do it on the
table saw, did not want to remove the guard again.

did what has been suggested elsewhere, cut under the lines and trimmed back, but found it difficult to cut back straight and level. found i had
to rehone my planes and be careful with the chisels. (by the by alf,
have got a new norton red and black stone, on a special, find it
useful to finish the edge???? )

anyway i think that some of the "simple" joints that we take for
granted are in fact more difficult to produce with hand tools
unless you have a real lot of practice, and we might well think to
produce them more effectively with machines. :?

as i have said before, i did woodwork at school, but back then it seemed
pretty easy, and i spent more time and effort on my metalworking
skills, racing bikes etc. now years later, i want to use a combination
of hand tools and machines, but lack the practice to cut and
chisel properly. the problem is we all want to produce things in
a hurry.

there is this strange dichotomy where you have to make a
bench to allow yourself to make the cabinets which look pretty
and are well made. but you are scared to let anyone to see the
bench in case they mentioned the joints.

i think you are right alf, we have short circuited the old ways
because the machines take the thought out of the process.
derek in oz is right it is still possible, but we are always looking
for the quicker way out.

anyway, back to my old bits of pallet, i must practice hand sawing
and trenching again .

paul :wink:
but

 

[Paul Chapman]

Why aren't we doing what used to be done?

I guess there are two reasons:

1. Woodworking is no longer taught in schools, so if someone like your Dad doesn't teach you, you don't know how to do the basic stuff, and

2. If and when you do attempt to make things yourself out of wood, the tendency these days is to start off with man-made boards for which hand tools are seldom suitable.

By the time you get into hand tools and realise how good working with proper wood and hand tools can be, a lot of the power tool methods are well-entrenched.

But on the other hand, that might not be the reason at all..... :roll:

Good questions though, Alf, so some good has come out of the hot weather (as I watch my lawn getting browner and browner 'cos I can't use my hose )

Paul

 

[Anonymous]

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[Alf]

...far better to plant on a grooved piece in the trad way (does it have a name?)

Drawer slips?

Also I always amazed when people talk of fine woodwork and MDF in the same breath - I think they should be taken out and publicly dove-tailed!

Ooo painful. Although, thinking about it, despite my utter hatred of MDF, it does make excellent substrate for veneering - and that can encompass some of the finest woodwork imaginable. Mind you, cometimes it can look awful too. :lol:

I'll have to come back to this when i'm not hunting windows of opportunity between connection drop off. I hate living out in the middle of nowhere. :evil:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Taffy Turner]

This is a fascinating topic, and one which I think is going to run and run.

Speaking for myself, I enjoyed woodwork at school, but was persuaded away from it to more "intellectual" subjects, which I have bitterly regretted ever since.

I started turning some 4 or 5 years ago, and really enjoy it - it was almost a spiritual experience - it was as if I had found something that I had been looking for all my life on a subconscious level. Probably something to do with an innate need to be creative I guess.

My interest was broadened into more general woodworking / furniture making mainly as a result of being inspired by watching Norm (I suspect that I am not alone in this). Sadly, this means that my methods of working tend to be Norm related, mainly as that is the only way of doing things that I have seen. Fortunately this forum has removed my blinkers so to speak, and broadened my knowledge base considerably, but I still feel depressed sometimes by how little I know, but I do find the learning process most enjoyable.

I guess the point that I am trying to make, is that many of us use the methods of working that we do as a result of a "monkey see, monkey do" mentality.

I also believe that another issue is that a lot of power tool manufacturers spend a lot of money on marketing their machines and methods, whereas this tends not to be the case with hand tool manufacturers, who, I suspect, feel that they are selling into a more specialised niche market. I think that being exposed to this constant stream of machine tool manufacturing methods is bound to colour our judgement, as we subconsciously absorb a lot of this information without realising it.

Of course - I could just be talking through my hat!!!

Regards

Gary

 

[dedee]

Are we in danger of being dragged down the nostalgia slope?

One has to ask of course if modern machines, methods and materials had been around x years ago would the great furniture makers have used them or ignored them?

Is the box/finger/comb joint an example of one that was rarely made by hand but has become easy with power tools? The mechanics of the dovetail mean that even if poorly made it can still be quite strong but the finger joint would be useless unless tight fitting.

Andy

 

[engineer one]

i think it is very easy to think that all that is old is better, but,
as we know, the egyptians invented plywood, and chppendale,
and other makers used it. also older makers, due to time
constraints as well as costs, used the cheapest wood where it
could not be seen.

i think it is a mistake to complain about people using mdf, maybe where
they use it is open to question, but as alf says it is a suitable strata
for veneer, and more importantly no one used to complain about
the large scale usage of plywood. the fact is you can't get it at an
economical rate any more, nor with decent facings on both sides.

even dc remarks that for wide pieces, it is almost impossible to ensure
that "wood" will stay stable across the widths that have been glued
together.

i know about topping and tailing etc, but what about expansion. again
i know that you can take some precautions against it, but if you are painting furniture for instance, why not use mdf??

what many have to remember is that you have to start somewhere,
and many people get back into woodworking after starting with
bits of mdf from the sheds. what is wrong with that????

i do agree that machine tool manufacturers do market better,
but they have researched ways of using their machines more
effectively. maybe the methods are wrong, but it is thinking
outside the box that enables us to combine the pleasures of
hand tool usage, with the benefits of maybe limited machinery
usage.

i think that some of the "advances" promoted by makers
are the result of using modern materials and not necessarily giving
enough thought to the adaptation needed for "wood".

interesting thought, with a rat,"sorry" you have to have sliding
dovetails with the dovetail on both sides, unless it is wider than
the thinnest cutter.

i am not sure that all the older methods of manufacture are as correct
as we would like to think, i am sure that colin c would confirm that
there are certain things which re-occur with certain design influences
on antique or older furniture he restores.

what is certain is that it is difficult with safety, to get certain machines
to stop in the middle of a panel, you may have to remove guards,
work without riving knives etc. however hand tools can basically
start and end where you want. yes i know there are limits, but the
principle is right.

the use of new sheet materials is not necessarily wrong, if you
clothe it properly, in the same way that using machine designed
joints made by hand tools is not wrong, it is just the
appropriate use of both that is right.

just enjoy what you can make, and the fact that you can make it.

paul :wink:
oh yes, but alf didn't you chose to live in the sticks :?

 

[Anonymous]

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[Adam]

Not complaining - just being rude about it! I confess to using a piece now and then but usually when I've rescued it from a skip. I agree about enjoying it etc. You should do just what you want and just ignore opinions if you don't agree with them.

cheers
Jacob

Funny, I think I've decided veneer onto MDF is not for me. Its often as not "too flat". I mean it looks artificial its so perfect. Not a flaw, a catch, a whisper of light reflected at an unusual angle from it. For me I think its so without soul, it can easily ruin the whole piece.

For jigs and stuff great, for small areas like panels, and small boxes its great - but on large items like tabletops, the whole point is often to have an imposing presence, and its the nice wood that normally achieves that, when its so artifically flat, it just immediately looks false, and, other than the veneer, their is no other aspect you can often see (other than the top of the table without scribbling down underneath). On boxes and smaller stuff, and panels, you are looking at the whole shape, the hinges, the locks, the rest of the doors etc. So having veneers isn't so critical.

Adam

Adam

 

[Alf]

i think it is very easy to think that all that is old is better

Ah, that and Andy's nostalgia comment are a hole different can o' worms. Feel free to open it up if you like, but it's certainy not what I was trying to suggest. More like "if you're daft enough to do it the old fashioned way, why not do it the whole hog and give yourself a break"

oh yes, but alf didn't you chose to live in the sticks :?

Er, no actually. I had to go where the roof over my head was going to be.

Adam, I know exactly what you mean about some veneered stuff.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Paul Chapman]

I always amazed when people talk of fine woodwork and MDF in the same breath - I think they should be taken out and publicly dove-tailed!

Some of the finest craftsmen around today regularly use MDF as a substrate for veneering, and I bet the craftsmen of yesteryear would have used it had it been available and given the problems of veneering over solid wood :wink:

Paul

 

[Anonymous]

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[Alf]

Information is scarce. "The Old Wheelwright's Shop" is unique. NB That's the only book EVERY woodworker should read.

Get thee The Village Carpenter PDQ, Jacob. You'll like that one too.

Also I posted a PS previously, answering Alf's query about single sided dovetails - in case you missed it!

I did. Ahh, interesting thought. It did fleetingly flick through my mind but then I wondered if sliding dovetails are like their through counterparts and have so much "spare" strength that it wouldn't be an issue?

Cheers, Alf

 

[woodbloke]

Paul wrote:

Some of the finest craftsmen around today regularly use MDF as a substrate for veneering

David Linley's furniture is pretty much all mdf with a thin smear of very expensive veneer over the top; if there's a flat surface that can be veneered, then mdf is the material of first choice.
To throw my hat in the ring - is old better? In my view, no, its just different. Joyce in his books mentions that the Victorians were capable of 'unbelievably shoddy workmanship' whilst at the same time it is generally recognized that the Regency period just prior to it was the golden age of cabinetmaking.
Today we find that 'materials are uniformly sound' (eg MDF) and so there should be little excuse for poor work, but I suspect the bean counters are still at work so poorly made stuff abounds and will continue to do so, much as it was in the Victorian era.
A glance through recent back issues of F&C will reveal however, that work of superb quality is being produced in greater quantity than ever - Rob

 

[Wanlock Dod]

it is very easy to think that all that is old is better

My view on this (perhaps wrongly) is that there has been something of a Darwinian "survival of the fittest" going on for all of the old stuff. The poorly made stuff has largely fallen by the wayside/gone the way of all flesh, and what we are left with these days is the "better" stuff.

I'm sure that Ye Olde Ikea Shoppe existed (or something a little bit like it), but we just don't know about that stuff because it never stood the test of time.

Just a thought.

Dod :roll: