Groove or M & T first in a frame?

[G S Haydon]

By hand

Set out joinery

Chop the mortises

Saw down the cheeks of the tenon

Groove

Cut of the shoulders.

Aim for fit of the saw, avoid paring and faffing if possible. Depending on you're skill it's well worth practising until you can do it that way on some scrap.

Nice idea to use the groove as a jig but not very helpful. On thin material you're more likely to break the edge of the groove off. Having the groove and mortise the same size is ok, it also works if the mortise is a touch wider than the groove, you'll just need to ease the part of the groove that forms the haunch.

However a narrower mortice creates a sloppy fit.

 

[Andy Kev.]

Hello,

Out of curiosity, how are you making the grooves, a plough plane?

If so, make sure the plough cutter matches your mortice chisel width precisely. Grind a plough cutter to match your chisel, if one doesn't naturally correspond. The ploughed groove will form the haunch, and the tenon must be the same width as the haunch, so the mortice must be the same also. If you are going to chop the mortice into the groove, then there will be no problems with matched tooling, but make the mortice wider than the groove, even a tiny bit and you must chop before running the grooves and obviously the haunch will wider too. You can't make the mortices thinner than the groove in any circumstance, with a ploughed groove.

Mike.

Thanks for the tip but I'm proud to announce that I have already worked that out: Veritas plough plane coupled with Veritas chisel.

I defy anybody to get more matched than that! :mrgreen:

 

[Andy Kev.]

By hand

Set out joinery

Chop the mortises

Saw down the cheeks of the tenon

Groove

Cut of the shoulders.

Aim for fit of the saw, avoid paring and faffing if possible. Depending on you're skill it's well worth practising until you can do it that way on some scrap.

Nice idea to use the groove as a jig but not very helpful. On thin material you're more likely to break the edge of the groove off. Having the groove and mortise the same size is ok, it also works if the mortise is a touch wider than the groove, you'll just need to ease the part of the groove that forms the haunch.

However a narrower mortice creates a sloppy fit.

It's not thin material (1") and the groove and mortice will be either 3/8" or 5/16" (not decided yet). My two weakest skills are sawing tenon cheeks and morticing anything deeper than about an inch. As a result of the discussion a few weeks ago I tried, and had a deal of success with, sawing the tenon shoulders first and then taking a chisel to the cheeks, finishing off with the router plane. The last step slows it down a bit but the results are bang on. That just leaves the deep mortices ...

 

[Jacob]

..... You can't make the mortices thinner than the groove in any circumstance, with a ploughed groove.

Mike.

Yes you can.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Fair enough, matched tools are cool. TBH the only reason I can think of for chopping the mortices first is because you must do it that way with plough and mortice tools that differ in width. Match them and you open up the option of doing it the other way around, which makes sense, really, as much of the chopping is done for you.

It does not matter about accuracy of the mortice length being indeterminate when the groove is cut first. A little slop in the length is preferable anyway. If the mortice is through, then it can be marked accurately on that side which is the only side that matters. Blind mortices do not matter.

Mike.

 

[woodbrains]

..... You can't make the mortices thinner than the groove in any circumstance, with a ploughed groove.

Mike.

Yes you can.

Hello,

No you can't, unless a haunch that does not fit the groove is acceptable to you.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

..... You can't make the mortices thinner than the groove in any circumstance, with a ploughed groove.

Mike.

Yes you can.

Hello,

No you can't, unless a haunch that does not fit the groove is acceptable to you.

Mike.

You will have to work it out (with a pencil!).
The top of the tenon would line up with the bottom of the slot and there'd be a mitre to take the shoulder of the rail to the depth of the slot. The haunch would be deeper than than slot and into undisturbed wood.
Just got back from the pub so this might be complete b**locx - I'll have a look tomorrow morning. Nighty night!

 

[woodbrains]

..... You can't make the mortices thinner than the groove in any circumstance, with a ploughed groove.

Mike.

Hello,

No you can't, unless a haunch that does not fit the groove is acceptable to you.

Mike.

You will have to work it out (with a pencil!).

Hello,

Doing it that way is just perverse, though. And I don't need to work it out with, or without a pencil. It would take untold faffing about and unnecessary work.

Since the OP has matched plough and chisel, it is not something that is even going to arise anyway.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

...

Doing it that way is just perverse, though. .....

No it isn't. You may be presented with the problem of including a panel thicker than your desired M&T. Or rebates/mouldings which don't line up ditto.

 

[G S Haydon]

It's not thin material (1") and the groove and mortice will be either 3/8" or 5/16" (not decided yet). My two weakest skills are sawing tenon cheeks and morticing anything deeper than about an inch. As a result of the discussion a few weeks ago I tried, and had a deal of success with, sawing the tenon shoulders first and then taking a chisel to the cheeks, finishing off with the router plane. The last step slows it down a bit but the results are bang on. That just leaves the deep mortices ...

Depends, if you're a joiner 1" is pretty thin stock. From my own perspective hand tools are fun because they allow for brisk work when doing "one offs". Great you've found a way through it. I would just urge people to practice, it does not take too long to become proficient at simple tasks and if you can't mortise deeper than an inch with success, practice would be very worthwhile. Most hand tool work is cutting to a line or chopping, so practising workarounds for these tasks seems odd. There again honing guides became popular over the past 20 years to avoid learning how to do a simple task effectively.

Good luck with the project, look forward to seeing it when done. I enjoyed building mine

 

[Peter Sefton]

It's not thin material (1") and the groove and mortice will be either 3/8" or 5/16" (not decided yet). My two weakest skills are sawing tenon cheeks and morticing anything deeper than about an inch. As a result of the discussion a few weeks ago I tried, and had a deal of success with, sawing the tenon shoulders first and then taking a chisel to the cheeks, finishing off with the router plane. The last step slows it down a bit but the results are bang on. That just leaves the deep mortices ...

Depends, if you're a joiner 1" is pretty thin stock. From my own perspective hand tools are fun because they allow for brisk work when doing "one offs". Great you've found a way through it. I would just urge people to practice, it does not take too long to become proficient at simple tasks and if you can't mortise deeper than an inch with success, practice would be very worthwhile. Most hand tool work is cutting to a line or chopping, so practising workarounds for these tasks seems odd. There again honing guides became popular over the past 20 years to avoid learning how to do a simple task effectively.

Good luck with the project, look forward to seeing it when done. I enjoyed building mine

Please, please don't turn this into a sharpening debate!

 

[RobinBHM]

In joinery we tend to machine the tenoner first, adjust morticer to suit, set up for grooving when joints are done.

If doing by hand I think the same routine would make sense, as peter says it is easier to do all marking out and do the morticing so you can see all of the lines clearly.

However, if you are morticing by hand there is the argument that it is easier to remove wood by grooving than chopping out with chisel, so if the groove is done first then part of the morticing is then done for you already.

Of course if the grooving is deep enough do you need to mortice any deeper....

Interested to know how you set the mortice to the size of the tenon? Unless you are morticing twice to form the width. I usually cut the mortice (which is dictated by the size of the chisel) and make the tenon to fit. I have found if you try and take a skim cut with a machine mortice chisel it bends into the open hole.

Cheers Peter

Hi Peter, only just noticed your comment!

Generally its easier to set a tenoner up first, then set up the morticer, not for fit, but to set up the mortice position so the joint is flush on the face side. We machine with moulding as face side, so face down on tenoner, face side to fence on morticer and face side to bed on spindle moulder. We actually use preset stack tooling for tenons so we dont need to adjust for fit and a 1/2" chisel lives in the morticer all the time.

 

[Peter Sefton]

In joinery we tend to machine the tenoner first, adjust morticer to suit, set up for grooving when joints are done.

If doing by hand I think the same routine would make sense, as peter says it is easier to do all marking out and do the morticing so you can see all of the lines clearly.

However, if you are morticing by hand there is the argument that it is easier to remove wood by grooving than chopping out with chisel, so if the groove is done first then part of the morticing is then done for you already.

Of course if the grooving is deep enough do you need to mortice any deeper....

Interested to know how you set the mortice to the size of the tenon? Unless you are morticing twice to form the width. I usually cut the mortice (which is dictated by the size of the chisel) and make the tenon to fit. I have found if you try and take a skim cut with a machine mortice chisel it bends into the open hole.



Cheers Peter

Hi Peter, only just noticed your comment!

Generally its easier to set a tenoner up first, then set up the morticer, not for fit, but to set up the mortice position so the joint is flush on the face side. We machine with moulding as face side, so face down on tenoner, face side to fence on morticer and face side to bed on spindle moulder. We actually use preset stack tooling for tenons so we dont need to adjust for fit and a 1/2" chisel lives in the morticer all the time.

Thanks for your reply Robin which makes total sense now and is good woodworking practise, although you already know this from doing it countless times

Cheers Peter

 

[G S Haydon]

I think we got away with it Peter, I have to tease now and again :lol:

 

[Andy Kev.]

It's not thin material (1") and the groove and mortice will be either 3/8" or 5/16" (not decided yet). My two weakest skills are sawing tenon cheeks and morticing anything deeper than about an inch. As a result of the discussion a few weeks ago I tried, and had a deal of success with, sawing the tenon shoulders first and then taking a chisel to the cheeks, finishing off with the router plane. The last step slows it down a bit but the results are bang on. That just leaves the deep mortices ...

Depends, if you're a joiner 1" is pretty thin stock. From my own perspective hand tools are fun because they allow for brisk work when doing "one offs". Great you've found a way through it. I would just urge people to practice, it does not take too long to become proficient at simple tasks and if you can't mortise deeper than an inch with success, practice would be very worthwhile. Most hand tool work is cutting to a line or chopping, so practising workarounds for these tasks seems odd. There again honing guides became popular over the past 20 years to avoid learning how to do a simple task effectively.

Good luck with the project, look forward to seeing it when done. I enjoyed building mine

You'll get no disagreement from me on the need for practice. Jigs and guides are good though for when you've still not acquired a skill and need to cut to the chase i.e. produce a joint for a project that you want to finish. I reckon that guides also help development of the skills. It was using a honing guide that gave me the confidence to realise that I can do secondary bevels easily by hand but I always use a guide for the primary bevel (and can see no particular advantage to doing the primary bevel by hand because it's not something you have to do frequently).

I know that I drift to the right when sawing so I always try to have the waste on the right with a view to finishing with the chisel or routing plane. Practice has meant that I now get most shortish cuts right but I still can't manage long ones (like four inch tenon cheeks) with the right degree of consistency but I'll get there one day.

My dirty secret is that I use a magnetic Veritas jig for dovetails, although that has led to improvement because I now tend to use it to start cuts off, remove it and continue by hand. I couldn't have managed that a year back. So my current approach is to use an aid or jig when I need it while practising in the background in order to need said aids ever less.

 

[Jacob]

.... can see no particular advantage to doing the primary bevel by hand because it's not something you have to do frequently)......

The advantage of doing it by hand is that it's quicker and easier. The 25º bevel doesn't need to be precise or flat - it it just needs to be slightly less than the 30º edge . This means you can do it fast and energetically freehand - as much force as you can muster.
It's a good idea to do it frequently as a matter of course or you have spend much more time on the growing primary bevel, so it saves time and effort there too.
NB us freehanders don't think in terms of primary or secondary bevel; rather it's "backing off" by grinding metal from behind the edge, followed by honing the edge.

 

[Andy Kev.]

.... can see no particular advantage to doing the primary bevel by hand because it's not something you have to do frequently)......

The advantage of doing it by hand is that it's quicker and easier. The 25º bevel doesn't need to be precise or flat - it it just needs to be slightly less than the 30º edge . This means you can do it fast and energetically freehand - as much force as you can muster.
It's a good idea to do it frequently as a matter of course or you have spend much more time on the growing primary bevel, so it saves time and effort there too.
NB us freehanders don't think in terms of primary or secondary bevel; rather it's "backing off" by grinding metal from behind the edge, followed by honing the edge.

I do understand that and it's a position I could perhaps move to one day if I get my skills up. In the meantime I'm happy to do the one by hand and the other with the guide. That said, we really must not let this turn into the usual sharpening debate!!!

 

[Jacob]

...
I do understand that and it's a position I could perhaps move to one day if I get my skills up. ..!

It's easier - less skill required.

 

[Andy Kev.]

Right then, I've had practice go through 4" of pine as follows: mark up 3/8" mortice at both ends and pare in the start (not a million miles away from using a groove as a jig), then standing at the end and concentrating greatly on achieving verticality and not allowing the chisel to turn about the vertical axis, I bashed through over halfway in one direction, then came back in the other. I was very happy that it worked i.e. the holes met up. The marked lines got a bit ragged, so the chisel must have moved a bit laterally. It was very easy to clean up the mortice walls with a bevel edge chisel.

I think that in a perfect world I would mark the mortice with lines at 5/16" and 3/8", cut it with a 5/16" chisel then pare the walls out to 3/8", thus avoiding the ragged edges. Unfortunately I can see no way of guaranteeing the centring of two mortice markings.

All that said, I'm beginning to feel optimistic but will still do a few more practice runs.

 

[Jacob]

Right then, I've had practice go through 4" of pine as follows: mark up 3/8" mortice at both ends and pare in the start (not a million miles away from using a groove as a jig), then standing at the end and concentrating greatly on achieving verticality and not allowing the chisel to turn about the vertical axis, I bashed through over halfway in one direction, then came back in the other. I was very happy that it worked i.e. the holes met up. The marked lines got a bit ragged, so the chisel must have moved a bit laterally. It was very easy to clean up the mortice walls with a bevel edge chisel.

I think that in a perfect world I would mark the mortice with lines at 5/16" and 3/8", cut it with a 5/16" chisel then pare the walls out to 3/8", thus avoiding the ragged edges. Unfortunately I can see no way of guaranteeing the centring of two mortice markings.

All that said, I'm beginning to feel optimistic but will still do a few more practice runs.

"Pare in the start"- is that the thing described in Wearing's book? Pointless, no need.
Are you using a mortice chisel? If so you certainly don't need to clean up the sides.
If a bevel edge you clean up the sides by levering it a bit with each cut so it scrapes the sides. No paring either way.
Not sure what you mean by "centreing" the markings. All markings for almost everything are taken from face and/or edge sides - this guarantees your markings will line up - no "centreing" is involved. In fact most mortices are well off centre in order to line up with other features such as rebates.
If you haven't got a mortice gauge then you really need two ordinary pin gauges which you keep set from beginning to end of the job, and always mark from face/edge. Wheel gauges not good, too expensive - you need several. The old wooden ones are dirt cheap and utterly superior in every way.