markturner":18t6cnc0 said:
You need to go on the S & S website.
Gratuitous Plane ****......warning, explicit images.....
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You need to go on the S & S website.
jimi43
Established Member
Hi Rod
I see Veritas as workhorses....I would have no problems using those every day of the week.
But the S&S and Holteys...to name just two are more art forms than working planes.
I think I would use them but I am not sure I would enjoy using them...for fear of damaging them. And it's nothing to do with resale value...
For the same reason...I would hate to have enough money to own a DB9. I wouldn't feel safe parking it anywhere other than my garage with a giant padlock on the door! :mrgreen:
Jim
I see Veritas as workhorses....I would have no problems using those every day of the week.
But the S&S and Holteys...to name just two are more art forms than working planes.
I think I would use them but I am not sure I would enjoy using them...for fear of damaging them. And it's nothing to do with resale value...
For the same reason...I would hate to have enough money to own a DB9. I wouldn't feel safe parking it anywhere other than my garage with a giant padlock on the door! :mrgreen:
Jim
Paul Chapman
Established Member
jimi43":1ggo5ubg said:
Why do you think using them would damage them, Jim :? I've never damaged a plane by using it and I've been using some of mine for 40 years. I've never understood the reluctance some woodworkers have to use good tools for the purpose they were designed.
Cheers :wink:
Paul
woodbloke
Established Member
I agree with Paul, planes are just tools in the same way that a DB9 is just a motor. If had a DB9 part of the ownership would be the sheer hell of being a hooligan in it and the 'wow' factor from other moterists. Aston Martin's and planes like Holtey's and S&S's are there to be used (but I hasten to add...not abused) - RobPaul Chapman":3uqnqnxh said:
I have a small Holtey smoother which I use and I have damaged it slightly sadly - slipped off the bench and missed the rubber mats.
Murphy's law - but I did not buy it to keep in a display cabinet - accidents happen?
Rod
Murphy's law - but I did not buy it to keep in a display cabinet - accidents happen?
Rod
jimi43
Established Member
Perhaps I ought to explain. I don't like imperfections on anything and if I paid huge sums for something I would be frightend of scratching/denting/dropping it.
Although I admire the engineering and design perfection of S&S and Holtey....I could not justify buying them to plane wood. I could just about justify Veritas or LN to be honest.
Since I don't buy things for investment only....I don't think I would be buying any of the above anytime soon....I think I will just stick to restoring old ones...this is where my pleasure lies.
And I love using the old restored infills....the pleasure is twofold...first a quality tool and secondly one rescued from a premature death. But I am not a professional woodworker...if I were and the quality of my cabinetmaking were to be improved by using an S&S then I would buy and use one...that would be justification alone.
Jim
Although I admire the engineering and design perfection of S&S and Holtey....I could not justify buying them to plane wood. I could just about justify Veritas or LN to be honest.
Since I don't buy things for investment only....I don't think I would be buying any of the above anytime soon....I think I will just stick to restoring old ones...this is where my pleasure lies.
And I love using the old restored infills....the pleasure is twofold...first a quality tool and secondly one rescued from a premature death. But I am not a professional woodworker...if I were and the quality of my cabinetmaking were to be improved by using an S&S then I would buy and use one...that would be justification alone.
Jim
woodbloke
Established Member
Jim, in my experience, professional cabinet makers take a very pragmatic approach to tools. They are what they are...just tools and they use them to earn a living. If a pro could get the same results with an old fettled Stanley No4, a card scraper and some 240g paper then that's what will be used and the money that might might have been spent on esoteric hardware will be spent instead on new tooling for the spindle or a couple of decent, fine tooth c/saw blades (say)jimi43":316q1rq2 said:
Don't be fooled into thinking that a S&S or Holtey will work any better than a well set up Veritas or LN (or even a Cliffi, for the benefit of Paul C :lol: )...they won't, as I've proved to myself and others on numerous occaisions. Infills are lovely things to have and own as part of a collection and are to be cherished, but they're made mainly for the serious collector who has the available wedge to part with to own such toys - Rob
Paul Chapman
Established Member
woodbloke":2f33j1en said:
That's been my experience as well. I've tried out various in-fill planes and while I can appreciate the skill that has gone into making them, from a user perspective they work no better than the top-end planes from LN, Veritas and Clifton. And in-fills tend to be less versatile because of their fixed mouths.
But as with all things, you pay your money and make your choice.
Cheers :wink:
Paul
Yes I have to agree.
I got my Holtey 11-SA at a very bargain price - I was after a kit!
http://www.holteyplanes.com/infill-planes-11SA.html
It does get used for tricky bits of wood but not that often, like my Japanese, Norris, Spiers and Mujithingy? smoothers - it's nice to try out and use other types of planes.
Most of the time I use my BU Veritas ones.
Rod
I got my Holtey 11-SA at a very bargain price - I was after a kit!
http://www.holteyplanes.com/infill-planes-11SA.html
It does get used for tricky bits of wood but not that often, like my Japanese, Norris, Spiers and Mujithingy? smoothers - it's nice to try out and use other types of planes.
Most of the time I use my BU Veritas ones.
Rod
jimi43
Established Member
Thanks for the input guys...I am sure this one will run and run with various views.
In all the things that I have approached, photography, art materials, guitars....and many more...the general rule is to buy the very best you can afford and the results will be reflected in this purchase.
Since I could afford it, I have always bought and always will buy Nikons, I would have LOVED a Hasselblad and go into medium format but my dosh, even then, could not stretch to that Rolls Royce of optics.
In art materials...I always bought the "artist" quality...anything less was a disappointment. And so on...
But with planes....I see a strange sub-culture...
I think this stems from the followers of various designs following change from woodies.
We now have Bedrock enthusiasts, innovative Veritas designs, old and modern infill designs and even woodie resurrection...with wonderful work being done by modern examples (Philly) of the old workhorses.
For the average professional cabinet maker...the Veritas, LN and Clifton...should provide all that is necessary but if you are a great infill fan...then I can see S&S and Holtey being wonderful modern useable examples of the Norris/Slater/Spiers stables. Lest we forget...a Norris of the day would have cost a year's wage for the carpenter...so an S&S is relatively cheap by comparison!
So...my final comment on the subject...IF I had all the money necessary not to value pick...I would have a collection of S&S and Holteys...some Veritas, Clifton and LN planes as workhorses and I would still have a few old Records...simply because the very best examples of the old ones of these are wonderful, innovative, historical gems!
Jim
In all the things that I have approached, photography, art materials, guitars....and many more...the general rule is to buy the very best you can afford and the results will be reflected in this purchase.
Since I could afford it, I have always bought and always will buy Nikons, I would have LOVED a Hasselblad and go into medium format but my dosh, even then, could not stretch to that Rolls Royce of optics.
In art materials...I always bought the "artist" quality...anything less was a disappointment. And so on...
But with planes....I see a strange sub-culture...
I think this stems from the followers of various designs following change from woodies.
We now have Bedrock enthusiasts, innovative Veritas designs, old and modern infill designs and even woodie resurrection...with wonderful work being done by modern examples (Philly) of the old workhorses.
For the average professional cabinet maker...the Veritas, LN and Clifton...should provide all that is necessary but if you are a great infill fan...then I can see S&S and Holtey being wonderful modern useable examples of the Norris/Slater/Spiers stables. Lest we forget...a Norris of the day would have cost a year's wage for the carpenter...so an S&S is relatively cheap by comparison!
So...my final comment on the subject...IF I had all the money necessary not to value pick...I would have a collection of S&S and Holteys...some Veritas, Clifton and LN planes as workhorses and I would still have a few old Records...simply because the very best examples of the old ones of these are wonderful, innovative, historical gems!
Jim
woodbloke
Established Member
I used my Norris A1 panel plane in a couple of 'shops and it was regarded by all who saw it as an item of curiosity, a thing from a bygone era...true it was admired, but having seen it, they then went happily back to their Records and Stanleys. In most pro 'shops these days, you'd be very hard pushed to find an expensive infill. They probably do exist in some shops where the boss may be a bit of a 'toolie, but my guess is, sadly...not many - Robjimi43":3kuzoicx said:
I feel the same Jimi - many people, even professional furniture makers I know dont see the point of spending more than you have to on tools. Myself, I have always brought the most expensive, as by and large, in life, you get what you pay for. I love the feel and look and pleasure of owning something that has been really nicely designed, made and finished. If it does the job better, then thats a bonus, but if not, i would still prefer to have the nicer version.
The older type planes are like the old aircraft such as spitfires etc - just lovely and evocative and iconic, sure the modern versions are better in trems of materials, efficiency etc, but nothing beats that feeling as you see one fly low overhead...
Cheer, Mark
The older type planes are like the old aircraft such as spitfires etc - just lovely and evocative and iconic, sure the modern versions are better in trems of materials, efficiency etc, but nothing beats that feeling as you see one fly low overhead...
Cheer, Mark
Kalimna
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Perhaps it is easier to justify the (profound) expense of a Holtey or Sauer&Steiner when, as a user, you are *only* a hobbyist. What I mean by that is that, if you are free from the constraints of profit, and also are lucky enough to have the disposable income to afford such a thing, then the sheer pleasure of using the finest crafted tool available is justification enough.
It doesn't necessarily matter that the tool works no better than a well-fettled Record/Clifton/LN/LV/etc, but the satisfaction to be gained from the use of such a tool is, perhaps, beyond the end result.
On a similar note, I truly enjoy drinking fine wine. I realise that the taste/smell is little different whatever the vessel I am drinking it from. However, I get much more enjoyment drinking from one of my Stuart crystal glasses than I would do from a plastic tumbler.
To be able to own a tool that is the pinnacle of the tool-makers art, and not just let it sit in a cabinet to be admired, but to use it in the process of producing a piece of furniture or musical instrument, is a good thing. And for those lucky enough to own such a tool - well done and I hope it brings you pleasure.
Adam
It doesn't necessarily matter that the tool works no better than a well-fettled Record/Clifton/LN/LV/etc, but the satisfaction to be gained from the use of such a tool is, perhaps, beyond the end result.
On a similar note, I truly enjoy drinking fine wine. I realise that the taste/smell is little different whatever the vessel I am drinking it from. However, I get much more enjoyment drinking from one of my Stuart crystal glasses than I would do from a plastic tumbler.
To be able to own a tool that is the pinnacle of the tool-makers art, and not just let it sit in a cabinet to be admired, but to use it in the process of producing a piece of furniture or musical instrument, is a good thing. And for those lucky enough to own such a tool - well done and I hope it brings you pleasure.
Adam
A
Anonymous
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jimi43
Established Member
There's just WAY to much space left on that bench Mike....imagine how many planes you could fit on there if you pushed them all up a bit! :mrgreen:
Jim
Jim
A
Anonymous
Guest
already added a no 6 veritas and the veritas aprin plane :roll:
woodbloke
Established Member
You mean a bit like this:jimi43":asp36qro said:
Jim? Somewhere in amongst that little lot is my Norris A1 (of which you have first dibs), a 25the anniversary LN No4.5 and a genuine Krenov smoother, not forgetting a Philybrush :lol: - Rob
Perhaps I can contribute another perspective on the subject of ownership of the most expensive planes.
I am sure what has been said about professional makers is generally truei, but there ceretainly are professionals who own and use these planes -David Charlesworth and Garrett Hack, to name just two.
As to the use of these planes, I am sure that while their makers are happy to sell to pure collectors (they need to make a living), they would, without exception, prefer that they be used rather than being locked away in display cases. I cannot speak for others, but as someone who is fortunate enough to be able to own some top quality planes, I use them routinely just as owners of Purdy shotguns use their guns and owners of Rolls Royces drive their cars. This means they acquire the patina of use but, to me, they are none the worse for that. If it also means that the ultimate value of my planes is less than it would otherwise be, it matters not a jot to me because I have no intention of selling them and, much more importantly, I bought them for ALL the pleasures of ownership. Yes, they are a joy to behold but they are even more of a joy to use. It is certainly true that Cliftons, LVs and LNs can be made to work just as well, but the aesthetics and craftsmanship embodied in the making of these top quality tools adds another dimension.
I know that many amateurs and professionals take a purely utilitarian view of hand tools (aand I would not for a moment criticise them for that) just as I do with power tools; I bought a big Festool router because it is handy to have two and it is functionally superior to my big Dewalt, but I gain no more pleasure from using the Festool - indeed, I gain no pleause from using any router, they are just a means to getting a job done. But, for me, hand tools have a special magic, particularly if they are the very best.
Jim
I am sure what has been said about professional makers is generally truei, but there ceretainly are professionals who own and use these planes -David Charlesworth and Garrett Hack, to name just two.
As to the use of these planes, I am sure that while their makers are happy to sell to pure collectors (they need to make a living), they would, without exception, prefer that they be used rather than being locked away in display cases. I cannot speak for others, but as someone who is fortunate enough to be able to own some top quality planes, I use them routinely just as owners of Purdy shotguns use their guns and owners of Rolls Royces drive their cars. This means they acquire the patina of use but, to me, they are none the worse for that. If it also means that the ultimate value of my planes is less than it would otherwise be, it matters not a jot to me because I have no intention of selling them and, much more importantly, I bought them for ALL the pleasures of ownership. Yes, they are a joy to behold but they are even more of a joy to use. It is certainly true that Cliftons, LVs and LNs can be made to work just as well, but the aesthetics and craftsmanship embodied in the making of these top quality tools adds another dimension.
I know that many amateurs and professionals take a purely utilitarian view of hand tools (aand I would not for a moment criticise them for that) just as I do with power tools; I bought a big Festool router because it is handy to have two and it is functionally superior to my big Dewalt, but I gain no more pleasure from using the Festool - indeed, I gain no pleause from using any router, they are just a means to getting a job done. But, for me, hand tools have a special magic, particularly if they are the very best.
Jim
