Grammar Post

[Agent_zed]

It's not difficult - if the word starts with an "s" the compound will have two "s"s

There must be more to that rule?

Destress for example isn't spelled Desstress (according to dictionary.com it can be spelt without a hyphen) or handshake, candlestick, downstairs, superstar.

So it's not as simple as you make out. Same with 'I' before 'E', except all the times when it isn't?!

English is certainly not perfect and is easy to misunderstand written words even when you get it right. If I am a 'Lead Scientist' am I in charge or am I working on a metal?

Whilst musing on this topic last night I had a thought about how much more written word there must be in the past 10-15 years. With the rise of the internet people of all walks of life now have the ability to write a comment/post etc where previously they could not. You might have got the odd 'letter to the editor' in a paper but generally if you didn't have to write in your job you probably didn't do a lot of it. If you wanted to know how to do something you would ask someone verbally. In some ways it is probably good that more people have to write and it will be interesting to see if spellings/grammar gets better or worse over time.

I personally don't think replying to people just to correct a spelling or grammar mistake is helpful. Better IMO to answer the question and correct the error in context without drawing undue attention to it. When my kid pronounces something wrong I don't just say 'wrong it's X' at him, I'll answer the question and work in the correct word so he stays engaged and can take in the correction.

Also a pet hate when someone uses a person's poor spelling/grammar as a point to win an argument that has nothing to do with the error. Using their or they're in the wrong place does not instantly make the point the person is making incorrect.

 

[Jacob]

There must be more to that rule?

Destress for example isn't spelled Desstress (according to dictionary.com it can be spelt without a hyphen) or handshake, candlestick, downstairs, superstar.

"De-stress" is a compound of "de" and "stress", not "Des" and "stress", and adding a hyphen avoids confusing it with a misspelling of "distress".
"Mis" may get conflated with "miss" as in "miss a bus" or similarly, as in "Miss Whiplash"

 

[Cozzer]

"Mis" may get conflated with "miss" as in "miss a bus" or similarly, as in "Miss Whiplash"

Marvellous.
My first genuine grin of the day!

Thank you, Jacob!

 

[Agent_zed]

"De-stress" is a compound of "de" and "stress", not "Des" and "stress", and adding a hyphen avoids confusing it with a misspelling of "distress".
"Mis" may get conflated with "miss" as in "miss a bus" or similarly, as in "Miss Whiplash"

The point was a rule was put forward which does not cover all eventualities, as per my other examples.

'if the word starts with an "s" the compound will have two "s"s'

If you try and apply it exactly as above to 'Mispelling' then it wouldn't work as the word doesn't start with an 'S'.

So assuming you meant the rule would have to be if the second word began with an 'S' it also wouldn't work with 'Superstar' as it is not 'Supersstar'.

The point being that saying something isn't difficult and then providing a rule that doesn't always work just goes to show that it isn't as simple as you might think it is.

If you teach the rule above as is, you will get incorrect results.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

If you try and apply it exactly as above to 'Mispelling' then it wouldn't work as the word doesn't start with an 'S'.

Exactly.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

So assuming you meant the rule would have to be if the second word began with an 'S' it also wouldn't work with 'Superstar' as it is not 'Supersstar'.

Which has nothing to do with "mis".

 

[Yojevol]

Which has nothing to do with "mis".

Exactly, Phil.
As far as I can see there are only 4 base words where it applies; shape, spell, spend and step. 5 if you include 'missing' - that's me, tone deaf.
Brian

 

[Agent_zed]

Which has nothing to do with "mis".

You didn't say it needed to be associated with 'mis'.

It's not difficult - if the word starts with an "s" the compound will have two "s"s

This is your exact full quote. The way I read it is that the rule is for all compound words, it does not specify any other conditions beyond having an 'S' to start the word.

Should I have guessed that you specifically meant when using the word 'mis' in front of another word? and that the 'word' you refer to is the second word not the first? How is someone with a more limited grasp of english meant to take your rule and apply it when it doesn't actually work or needs additional interpretation.

You say something isn't difficult and then provide an ambigous rule, which shows to me that english is actually pretty difficult at times.

 

[Yojevol]

You didn't say it needed to be associated with 'mis'.



This is your exact full quote. The way I read it is that the rule is for all compound words, it does not specify any other conditions beyond having an 'S' to start the word.

Should I have guessed that you specifically meant when using the word 'mis' in front of another word? and that the 'word' you refer to is the second word not the first? How is someone with a more limited grasp of english meant to take your rule and apply it when it doesn't actually work or needs additional interpretation.

You say something isn't difficult and then provide an ambigous rule, which shows to me that english is actually pretty difficult at times.

As I'm sure you are aware CONTEXT is a very important element of communication, be it written or verbal. In this case you have completely ignored the context of @Phil Pascoe 's comment.
However, one thing I have noticed about Phil's input is that he doesn't use the 'reply' button so it's sometimes not clear what he is referring to.
Brian

 

[Jacob]

The point was a rule was put forward which does not cover all eventualities, as per my other examples.

'if the word starts with an "s" the compound will have two "s"s'

If you try and apply it exactly as above to 'Mispelling' then it wouldn't work as the word doesn't start with an 'S'.

Yes it does: Spelling, not pelling. The compound is between mis and spelling.

So assuming you meant the rule would have to be if the second word began with an 'S' it also wouldn't work with 'Superstar' as it is not 'Supersstar'.

The compound here is between Super and star with only one s between them

The point being that saying something isn't difficult and then providing a rule that doesn't always work just goes to show that it isn't as simple as you might think it is.

If you teach the rule above as is, you will get incorrect results.

Gotta get out of here and do some work! I may be some time.

 

[Agent_zed]

Yes it does: Spelling, not pelling. The compound is between mis and spelling.

You have interpreted the term 'the word' to mean the second part of the word in question. Which I can potentially see being possible assuming the user knows what a compound word is and assumes the 'word' to refer to that part and not the entire word they are trying to spell. Although ambiguity surrounds the term 'the word' as the rule does not state if this is the completed word which in this case is 'mispelling' which starts with an M.

The compound here is between Super and star with only one s between them

Although if we do interpret the rule as it being the second part of the compound word the word 'Superstar' still causes the rule to fail. You have not followed the rule exactly as given. ''if the word starts with an "s" (Star) the compound will have two "s"s (Supersstar)'. There is nothing in that simple rule to avoid this situation and you seem to have added a clause without explanation.

As I'm sure you are aware CONTEXT is a very important element of communication, be it written or verbal. In this case you have completely ignored the context of @Phil Pascoe 's comment.
However, one thing I have noticed about Phil's input is that he doesn't use the 'reply' button so it's sometimes not clear what he is referring to.
Brian

Perhaps it's my background as a coder but rules have to be specific and unambigous. If not they will either fail completely or give you a different result. A computer (and even people) shouldn't have to guess the meaning of a rule.

Context or not the rule is incorrect for the majority of words as currently written and only works for a very few words (4 or 5 by your own count) if interpretted as probably intended. Is the rule only for words beginning with 'Mis' and the second part beginning with an 'S'? or does it apply to others?

To say it is not difficult and then provide something that only works in a very specific set of circumstances to me shows the exact opposite. Anyone trying to get a grasp of english is going to find it hard if they have to remember a vast amount of rules that only work sometimes or in specific situations. I am honestly not having a go at Phil, I am just trying to point out that just because something seems easy to one person it is not necessarily the case for all people. And teaching others can often be harder than we think as we forget all of the intricacies we apply automatically in our own heads.

I dislike the commonly used rule 'I' before 'E' except after 'C' as it doesn't work for weird, weight and Rottweiler and many other words.

A large amount of posts on this thread seem to support the chastising of people for getting spelling and grammar wrong whilst forgetting the hugely complex nature of our language.

To me ambiguity can cause just as many problems as grammar or spelling. In some cases G/S can cause the ambiguity but equality you can write perfectly correct nonsense.

 

[John Brown]

I think Phil was specifically talking about the use of "mis" in a compound word.

 

[Yojevol]

Perhaps it's my background as a coder but rules have to be specific and unambigous

I think it must be your background as a coder. Most of us try to live by rules which are open to interpretation. We learn them from custom and practice from the day we are born. Our judicial system recognises that our rules can be ambiguous and open to interpretation. Therefore we have a complex system of courts to decide on such ambiguities.
It's pointless to argue that Phil's comment was a rule that can be inspected to the nth degree. It was stated in a conversational way that 99% of us would understand given the context within a thread discussing grammer. If you, as a coder, wish to construct a virtual model of our grammer rules, you've got a job for life as they're always changing.
Brian

 

[Yorkieguy]

It's remarkable how many ways we use the verb 'run':

To be busy: ‘always on the run’, enemy: ‘we’ve got them on the run’, run up a bill, run down a hill, run a bath, run a mile, run away, run into, to ‘have the runs’, run after, run along, run in, run around, run across, run over, in the long run, in the short run, on the run, a run for your money, a bombing run, a cricket score, an area frequented by animals – a ‘rabbit run, a chicken run’, the run of the grain (in wood), the butter has ‘run’, currency fluctuations - a ‘run on the pound’, ‘the Mousetrap has had a good run in the west End’, a run of good luck, as in ‘she’s had a good run at bingo’, ‘I’m off for a run, run for it, he runs a shop, I’ve been run off my feet, it was a close run thing, there’s a run in her stockings, the colours will run if the water is too hot, the well has run dry, run a computer program, I’ll run you to the station, the car has run out of petrol, the bus runs from Finchley to Golders Green, run the Hoover over the carpet, run a ship aground, run a race, run yourself to a standstill, run an errand, ranking – he’s running third’…

 

[John Brown]

It's remarkable how many ways we use the verb 'run':

To be busy: ‘always on the run’, enemy: ‘we’ve got them on the run’, run up a bill, run down a hill, run a bath, run a mile, run away, run into, to ‘have the runs’, run after, run along, run in, run around, run across, run over, in the long run, in the short run, on the run, a run for your money, a bombing run, a cricket score, an area frequented by animals – a ‘rabbit run, a chicken run’, the run of the grain (in wood), the butter has ‘run’, currency fluctuations - a ‘run on the pound’, ‘the Mousetrap has had a good run in the west End’, a run of good luck, as in ‘she’s had a good run at bingo’, ‘I’m off for a run, run for it, he runs a shop, I’ve been run off my feet, it was a close run thing, there’s a run in her stockings, the colours will run if the water is too hot, the well has run dry, run a computer program, I’ll run you to the station, the car has run out of petrol, the bus runs from Finchley to Golders Green, run the Hoover over the carpet, run a ship aground, run a race, run yourself to a standstill, run an errand, ranking – he’s running third’…

But they all mean pretty much the same thing. There are other words in English that can mean a variety of things, some which can mean almost the opposite.
Take "quite", for example, contrast "he was quite dead" with "I am quite hungry".

 

[Kittyhawk]

Language, the blessing and bane of life!
English is a technical language and very precise with words exactly describing form or function. Dutch on the other hand is a particularly earthy language. English 'binocular' describes the function of the device - the Dutch word translates to a more basic 'far-looker'. And an all time favourite, those baggy horse riding trousers, jodhpurs which I think is a word of Indian origin is translated from the Dutch name as 'sh*t catchers'. And I remember my M-I-L cooing over someone's baby in a pram and saying 'mooi kleine scheetje'. And rolling around the floor laughing when I asked the wife what she said and wife replied that it was a common phrase for cute little babies and translated as 'a beautiful little fart.'
But if English is technical and Dutch is earthy, Irish is way out there in oddball land.
I would stress that I don't really speak Irish, I just study the language in an effort to stop my brain turning to mush.
And I read that Ireland has just penned a new phrase for a black man - 'duine de dhath.' - a person of colour
As to why this was necessary, dubh=black, fear=man. So 'dubh fear' is a black man, right? Well, no. A black man is, or was, a 'gorm fear' which translates as a 'blue man'. The reason was that the Irish 'black man' referred to the devil which would of course be insulting so since ages past a back man was a blue man, until recently with the latest iteration.
And as far as I can understand the entire Irish language is littered with these idiosyncrasies whereby word meanings and phrases change entirely depending on the sentence and the sentiment being expressed and further complicated by quite significant regional differences. I can translate the words 'thank you' directly into Irish and it would engender bewilderment in the recipient. The Irish thank you translates for some reason to 'may there be goodness at you.' I remember an Irish shipmate saying to me once that you could go into any pub in the world, and if there happened to be two irishmen at the bar they would end up fighting. I understand that now, it's because I suspect they don't know what the other is talking about...
English has some odd rules, but it's not so bad.

Disclaimer: 25% Irish so allowed to poke a bit of fun..

 

[Kittyhawk]

And further to the above:
If there are any Irish speakers here can anyone tell me why 'gread leat' is considered so insultingly rude given that the words themselves are innocuous. An online search doesnt help at all.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I remember an Irish shipmate saying to me once that you could go into any pub in the world, and if there happened to be two irishmen at the bar they would end up fighting.

"It is impossible for an Englishman to open his mouth without making some other Englishman hate or despise him," George Bernard Shaw.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

A good quiz question - the English language contains more words than any other. Which language has the second largest number?

 

[Kittyhawk]

A good quiz question - the English language contains more words than any other. Which language has the second largest number?

Well I hope it's not Irish. I'm struggling enough already with the few words I know.