Going rate for foreman

[Mal-110]

Try and look at this from "your friends" point of view. You are asking him to work for less (£150 a day times five is £750 a week times 52 weeks a year which is 39,000 ) and giving him more resposibility. Although you say the foreman job isn't difficult, he might think it is, we often forget what we learn and take it for granted that others can do what we can without our experience. I would expect a foreman to do more than you are suggesting. If you are going to create the post then it must add value to your business so I would expect the workshop to run more efficiently with someone in charge all the time dealing with personnel and more "social" issues.
If he is a friend then ask him what he would consider a fair wage, having first explained to him the consequences for the company of the increased labour costs. He may very well prefer to remain a sub contractor?
I have had some experience of recruiting staff, and its more difficult the closer you are to them. You run the risk of losing their friendship as an employee. Which wasn't an issue with him being a sub contractor.
Good luck
Mal

 

[Cabinetman]

Hi Louis, change of topic sorry, just went back and read about the sort of work you do and you wanting to streamline the type of work done so as to become more profitable. A laudable aim, and it got me thinking have you ever done a bit of a survey on where your customers come from and why they came to you originally, it may be, that if you restrict your market (let’s imagine you only made window casements) you may end up with less referrals/new work coming in? And possibly put yourself at risk in a downturn. Just a thought. Ian

 

[clogs]

apart from the money TRUST is most important thing.....can u give him the keys and let him get on with it......?

before I retired I was on double that with a bonus, also with 5 men working.....the men were on £30k plus.....
that was 20 years ago......
think thats why the Poles ect have taken over general skilled jobs......

 

[Zeddedhed]

(£150 a day times five is £750 a week times 52 weeks a year which is 39,000 )

I know it's been said but £150 a day is NOT £39k

In 2021 there are 104 weekend days and 8 public holidays. Assuming he'll also take a couple of weeks off (another 10 days) that leaves 243 working days. At £150/day that makes £36,450. If you were giving him an average amount of paid holiday (20 days) he'd end up working 233 days for you (£34,950 @ £150/day) so only £1,950 a year better off. By the time you take his subbies insurance and costs (tools, accounting/bookeeping etc) your friend will actually be earning pretty much the same as he is as a subbie. Chuck in the bonus and the security and I'd say that he was better off with the foreman job.

Unless of course he values his 'freedom' more than 'security' and all that jazz.

 

[LBCarpentry]

I know it's been said but £150 a day is NOT £39k

In 2021 there are 104 weekend days and 8 public holidays. Assuming he'll also take a couple of weeks off (another 10 days) that leaves 243 working days. At £150/day that makes £36,450. If you were giving him an average amount of paid holiday (20 days) he'd end up working 233 days for you (£34,950 @ £150/day) so only £1,950 a year better off. By the time you take his subbies insurance and costs (tools, accounting/bookeeping etc) your friend will actually be earning pretty much the same as he is as a subbie. Chuck in the bonus and the security and I'd say that he was better off with the foreman job.

Unless of course he values his 'freedom' more than 'security' and all that jazz.

Exactly. Not to mention you don’t pay a subbie for holidays?

Doesn’t have to purchase any more powertools, can lose the van and get a fuel efficient car etc. The list goes on.
I get seriously narked off when people say they earn £200 a day. No you don’t - that’s what you try to CHARGE.

 

[Horsee1]

Your offer sounds reasonable to me. It's about what the foreman was on in a joinery firm I worked for and he had to deal with 7 joiners and 2 apprentices. He also got a company van and fuel allowance.

Maybe your guy just doesn't want the responsibility and enjoys the site work?

As for employee vs subbie;
Is there really 'added security' being on the books full time? Statutory sick pay and 3 weeks holiday a year isn't much of an insurance policy.
Horses for courses though.

 

[rafezetter]

But he's a subby currently so self employed and may consider that gives him tax advantages versus employment. He's giving up flexibility and being his own boss and he's taking on extra responsibility and is low risk as he has already proved his abilities.

And in return he's getting sick pay, holiday pay, regular GUARENTEED employment, possibly work place pension scheme, no more paying for an accountant to do his books, or the time himself (UNPAID) to do it, running a vehicle (and losing money when it breaks down), insuring a vehicle for work use (more expensive), guarenteed hours, no more BS working on a sunday because the delivery didn't turn up and you've got to make up time because you missed a day, and day's rained off and.... and .... and...

Shall I go on or have I made my point?

There's no way he was getting 39k a year on £150 a day - for 33k there's a HUGE upside and almost no downside.

Sounds to me like he's overvaluing himself thinking he can use the years of history to squeeze you - at a time when the economy is difficult. There will be people who will do the job well and bite your arm off for 33k (and LESS)

Your offer sounds reasonable to me. It's about what the foreman was on in a joinery firm I worked for and he had to deal with 7 joiners and 2 apprentices. He also got a company van and fuel allowance.

Maybe your guy just doesn't want the responsibility and enjoys the site work?

As for employee vs subbie;
Is there really 'added security' being on the books full time? Statutory sick pay and 3 weeks holiday a year isn't much of an insurance policy.
Horses for courses though.

Tell that to the millions of newly unemployed..... this guy needs a reality check, or shown the door whichever is easier.

 

[LBCarpentry]

The other point is that it’s me who’s employed him for 3 or 4 years now and I’ve had work for him everyday. So his books are already exaggerated.

yes tut tut me. But as soon as you don’t have a nice big workshop skip to dump everything in at the end of the daythat reality will hit even harder.

Look at this way -as a site Chippy you’ll spend on average one day every fortnight doing paperwork, tip run, quoting or “organising day”

that instantly puts you at £135 a day

 

[marcros]

And in return he's getting sick pay, holiday pay, regular GUARENTEED employment, possibly work place pension scheme, no more paying for an accountant to do his books, or the time himself (UNPAID) to do it, running a vehicle (and losing money when it breaks down), insuring a vehicle for work use (more expensive), guarenteed hours, no more BS working on a sunday because the delivery didn't turn up and you've got to make up time because you missed a day, and day's rained off and.... and .... and...

Shall I go on or have I made my point?

There's no way he was getting 39k a year on £150 a day - for 33k there's a HUGE upside and almost no downside.

Sounds to me like he's overvaluing himself thinking he can use the years of history to squeeze you - at a time when the economy is difficult. There will be people who will do the job well and bite your arm off for 33k (and LESS)



Tell that to the millions of newly unemployed..... this guy needs a reality check, or shown the door whichever is easier.

Does he though? He is a subbie and can continue being a subbie (with its associated risks and advantages), it isn't as though the option is the foreman job or no work.

He was made an offer and it didn't work for him. If there is a bit of wriggle room, make a slightly different final offer or if not move on. I would like to be your foreman, I have no experience and would like to earn £150k. Let's not fall out if you don't accept my offer though, the numbers have to work for both of us...

 

[doctor Bob]

He's a good subbie, just accept his decision, stay mates, keep using him ......... the right person will turn up.
Few years from now you'll think "thank _____ for that"

 

[D_W]

I may have missed it, but did he say what he'd take the job for. If he gives you a number 30 percent higher than the going rate, then you need to look elsewhere.

Maybe he'd do with a guaranteed salary and no bonus.

 

[HappyHacker]

I am far from being an expert on the issue but does IR35 and disguised employment come into play if he has been working as a subby for you full time for three years? HMRC do like to extract every fluid ounce of blood.

 

[rafezetter]

He's a good subbie, just accept his decision, stay mates, keep using him ......... the right person will turn up.
Few years from now you'll think "thank _____ for that"

I would do this tbh, if he's earning you money as a subbie and he thinks he's better of that way leave him to it - offer the job on the usual websites for less (maybe 25k) and offer a 5k bonus (or not in this economic climate) or a 1 year review with increased salary after.

Right now it's an employers market and your "mate" isn't seeing that, and tbh not sure you are either. You're trying to swap the business model during an economically difficult time and offering what many people would consider a good wage currently without really knowing how the new plan and numbers will go.

As an alternative can you offer some of the extra duties to one of the longterm staff as an interim (with a modest payrise) with future promotion to foreman planned if the new busniess model works out?

Subbie keeps earning money for you (while he's still useful, I'd keep an eye on that after this) and you're not taking on another mouth to feed.

 

[doctor Bob]

offer the job on the usual websites for less (maybe 25k) and offer a 5k bonus (or not in this economic climate) or a 1 year review with increased salary after.

Right now it's an employers market and your "mate" isn't seeing that, and tbh not sure you are either.

Just quoted part of it, but the salary you state would get no takers, and it's not an employers market in the industry at present. Employers are crying out for good guys.

 

[rafezetter]

Just quoted part of it, but the salary you state would get no takers, and it's not an employers market in the industry at present. Employers are crying out for good guys.

Employers are always crying out for "good guys", finding them among the thousands of applicants even pre-covid is a different matter altogether. Until covid, I had a friend earning 32k for a 5 day week out in all weathers as a window fitter, now made redundant, who was previously a foreman of sorts in a small engineering company in Bristol that's since gone bust, if it wasn't for him being tied to his location I'm sure he'd apply. There was a special on TV just monday about how even extremely well qualified people are applying for menial jobs just earn a wage, ANY wage; it's already been headline news that jobs are getting ridiculous numbers of applications at the moment, so while we'll have to disagree it's not an employers market (based on market evidence), over playing your hand regarding a salary (without experience) seems foolish to me, and in the current economic climate, speaks a little of his character.

Maybe he's got work from other sources coming out of his ears, but if LB's statement about having work for him every day is true, seems the subbie has been almost solely relying on LB's work.

Either way I hope the new plan works out and LB's business grows.

 

[Trevanion]

Employers are crying out for good guys.

I know it's a little bit of a soapbox for me, but that's what happens when the education system seemingly tries its best to funnel everyone down the university route because "everyone should be able to go to university" rather than any actual rhyme or reason for it. I know plenty of people whom have gone to university and studied a field where the supply is higher than the demand (Forensic science being a classic example, stupidly high amount of people with degrees in the subject but almost no jobs in the country) and then they come back home and wonder why there aren't any jobs available in their area of expertise.

Even extraordinarily mediocre people will go far in the trades at the moment, let alone someone with a modicum of intellect as unfortunately while there are some "good guys" there are a hell of a lot of people who just don't perform as they should which is mainly down to bad management either by not keeping on top of them with an iron fist or just letting too many of them congregate together and it's just pissing about the whole day with no work done at the end of the day to show for it.

I was basically laughed out of the school when I said I wanted to take up woodworking professionally, now I would say about two-thirds the people I went to school with are out of a job/on the knife edge whilst at the moment the work for us doesn't seem to stop coming and isn't showing much sign of stopping. Of course, tread carefully as it can come to a shuddering halt all of a sudden.

 

[Blackswanwood]

I know it's a little bit of a soapbox for me, but that's what happens when the education system seemingly tries its best to funnel everyone down the university route because "everyone should be able to go to university" rather than any actual rhyme or reason for it. I know plenty of people whom have gone to university and studied a field where the supply is higher than the demand (Forensic science being a classic example, stupidly high amount of people with degrees in the subject but almost no jobs in the country) and then they come back home and wonder why there aren't any jobs available in their area of expertise.

I agree. University has simply become a rite of passage for many.

 

[TomTheToolMan]

You are running a business therefore the salary is based on what the business can afford for the post. That should be the basis for the conversation. If he doesn't like it then no hard feelings as it is based on numbers. Regarding paying less because the market is likely to be depressed, that's a sure way to get people that don't care and spend all day trying to find their next job. Pay people a fair rate, treat them well and you will have hard working and loyal staff.

 

[LBCarpentry]

I know it's a little bit of a soapbox for me, but that's what happens when the education system seemingly tries its best to funnel everyone down the university route because "everyone should be able to go to university" rather than any actual rhyme or reason for it. I know plenty of people whom have gone to university and studied a field where the supply is higher than the demand (Forensic science being a classic example, stupidly high amount of people with degrees in the subject but almost no jobs in the country) and then they come back home and wonder why there aren't any jobs available in their area of expertise.

Even extraordinarily mediocre people will go far in the trades at the moment, let alone someone with a modicum of intellect as unfortunately while there are some "good guys" there are a hell of a lot of people who just don't perform as they should which is mainly down to bad management either by not keeping on top of them with an iron fist or just letting too many of them congregate together and it's just pissing about the whole day with no work done at the end of the day to show for it.

I was basically laughed out of the school when I said I wanted to take up woodworking professionally, now I would say about two-thirds the people I went to school with are out of a job/on the knife edge whilst at the moment the work for us doesn't seem to stop coming and isn't showing much sign of stopping. Of course, tread carefully as it can come to a shuddering halt all of a sudden.

Couldn’t agree more

it’s such a rarity to find a tradesman where is not only good at their job, but well presented, punctual, polite and considerate for the service they are supplying. All part of the problem why being a tradesman is not a profession. Anyone who fancies a go can do it!

 

[rafezetter]

You are running a business therefore the salary is based on what the business can afford for the post. That should be the basis for the conversation. If he doesn't like it then no hard feelings as it is based on numbers. Regarding paying less because the market is likely to be depressed, that's a sure way to get people that don't care and spend all day trying to find their next job. Pay people a fair rate, treat them well and you will have hard working and loyal staff.

I wasn't necessarily advocating paying less overall, as the idea of performance related bonus was mentioned before my post by someone else, and my take on this situation is the position is being created to increase company performance, so to my mind, the two should go hand in hand.

However offering a lower initial salary plus bonus, with increase after a year, or 6 months etc - considering the economic climate, even with trades being busy, and remembering that this is an untried position within the company seemed reasonable - throwing a flat salary of 35k with no performance incentive seems a good way to hire someone who gets paid regardless of value brought to the company, rather than someone who's got a fat carrot in front of him and personal belief he can deliver - because a person who accepts that form of income is invariably someone confident, diligent, hungry, careful with clients and looking for ways to increase the business as a whole.