Getting an Old Pigsticker Ready for Work

[D_W]

Someone has been watching too much youtube. For cabinet size work, this is generally done at the bench standing in line with the length of the mortise. The handles are probably flat on sides of the oval bolstered chisels because if you're standing behind them, you get a feel for straight ahead and they fit the shape of your hand a little better. mortising something properly like this is not physically difficult - you do it in a relaxed standing position. If you're starting to get tired forearms or shoulders, then allow the mallet to rest on the bench (without releasing your grip) while you lever a chisel.

Implementing a count is good for repetitive tasks (as in, something done with 75 repetitions may be exhausting and cause soreness the next day, but you could do it 30 repetitions 15 times in a period of several hours and feel little from it). To do hand work productively, you have to find the point where something like this is the case - that the actual rhythm of the work provides the breaks that you need to work continuously without straining.

 

[D_W]

Do not follow jacob's advice rounding the full bevel of this chisel - you will regret it if you do.

look closely at this chisel. There is a small stout bevel at the tip (which may be hard to see) so that you don't chip the edge off easily. Then the bevel is a long straight run, and the transition to the top of the chisel is rounded (which allows it to be slipped around bevel down in a deep mortise - this becomes instantly apparent if you use one if these with a fat blunt face or a sharp transition from having one perfectly flat bevel).

I think most of the advice given for using pigsticker type chisels are from people who have never used them in actual work - it's not that common if you're working at a bench to have something where they're more useful than a smaller chisel for mortises, but for deep work (like 2 1/2 or 3 inch deep mortises, let's say) they shine because they can rotate deep in.

Nearly every good oval bolstered chisel still in decent shape has the profile you see here.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/224650018738?hash=item344e2f3fb2:g:fosAAOSwIS1haz5D
This isn't the time for paul sellers-ish type willy nilly mix and match advice.

 

[Jacob]

Do not follow jacob's advice rounding the full bevel of this chisel - you will regret it if you do.

look closely at this chisel. There is a small stout bevel at the tip (which may be hard to see) so that you don't chip the edge off easily. Then the bevel is a long straight run, and the transition to the top of the chisel is rounded (which allows it to be slipped around bevel down in a deep mortise - this becomes instantly apparent if you use one if these with a fat blunt face or a sharp transition from having one perfectly flat bevel).

I think most of the advice given for using pigsticker type chisels are from people who have never used them in actual work - it's not that common if you're working at a bench to have something where they're more useful than a smaller chisel for mortises, but for deep work (like 2 1/2 or 3 inch deep mortises, let's say) they shine because they can rotate deep in.

Nearly every good oval bolstered chisel still in decent shape has the profile you see here.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/224650018738?hash=item344e2f3fb2:g:fosAAOSwIS1haz5D
This isn't the time for paul sellers-ish type willy nilly mix and match advice.

Nonsense. And boring!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Popcorn time.

 

[Jacob]

Popcorn time.

I have my stalker on ignore but had to have a peek as, as I guessed, he knows nothing about hand morticing. I'll stop there, back on ignore!

 

[D_W]

Nonsense. And boring!

It would be easier if you gave better advice, but you're not doing much of what you say you're doing. I doubt there are many people doing deep mortises, but furniture mortising is generally done riding the bevel. There is a mechanical part of this that you're completely failing to understand. The mortise does not end up getting scraped by the chisel while being cut unless the bevel is down. You need to think about this a little bit harder.

The tops of these chisels are very deliberately rounded, and it's only sensible to do that if the bevel is into the stock side of the work.

I cannot help that you started working long after this stuff was dead trade. But I also can't watch you give bad advice to someone who will probably judge yay or nay whether or not this is doable. You'll have butchering a tool that works wonderfully if used right. They're entitled to do that afterwards, but ought to use it properly first and see how it works.

There is no good reason to be a hack as a default or first try, though. It makes no sense as it's less effort to actually do it properly.

 

[D_W]

By the way, don't flatter yourself with the stalker stuff - I see you as a guy who has done little of what you speak of (but I have no trouble believing you did a lot of shop and site work with power tools) and you speak with such (unfounded) confidence that a lot of people will believe you until they've been around here long enough to see that you parrot the same simplistic thing over and over.

 

[Jacob]

...... you're not doing much of what you say you're doing.

I've done hundreds of mortices by hand, before I bought a machine, and still do them occasionally just to keep my hand in

I doubt there are many people doing deep mortises,

I guess my deepest is about 5" through stiles of many trad doors I've made, but I've never given "deepness" a thought.

but furniture mortising is generally done riding the bevel.

No it isn't. I've never heard of "riding the bevel" - it's just somebody's "good idea" which may well have caught on in some areas

There is a mechanical part of this that you're completely failing to understand. The mortise does not end up getting scraped by the chisel while being cut unless the bevel is down. You need to think about this a little bit harder.

Nothing to think about I don't seem to have a problem in this area. Maybe you need to think about it a little harder yourself

The tops of these chisels are very deliberately rounded,

No they aren't

and it's only sensible to do that if the bevel is into the stock side of the work.

Makes no sense at all

I cannot help that you started working long after this stuff was dead trade.

I was taught by someone who spent a long time working when it was still a live trade. Oddly enough - cutting a mortice was the first thing he taught me when he saw how badly I was doing it, I was probably "riding the bevel" or some such nonsense The vertical chisel idea was a revelation. The idea is to emulate the movement of a hand morticer. Hand Mortiser

....It makes no sense as it's less effort to actually do it properly.

Correct. Something you obviously need to learn.

 

[Jacob]

By the way, don't flatter yourself with the stalker stuff - I see you as a guy who has done little of what you speak of .....

I have done a lot of what I speak of. I see you as a guy who has done little of what you speak of.
Enough of this childish chest beating, fun though it is, back on ignore!

 

[dannyr]

Hey hey, fellows

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Popcorn time. I was right.

 

[D_W]

Popcorn time. I was right.

Movie's over! Just part of the general PSA about tools being made by the maker for professionals at one point, and at a time where their performance mattered from an economic standpoint (mortising machines and power drills probably eliminated the need for pigstickers - to the point that they were never made in an automated process later whereas the bench chisels appear to have been switched to automated grinding setups mid1900s or a little earlier).

My point about using these also stems from a debate in the US about how the rounded top of the flat bevel is there to prevent bruising the ends of mortises. it doesn't really do much for that. In a mortise where that part of the chisel is buried (which can be pretty deep given the length of the bevel), removing the sharp corner on the top of the chisel allows pounding the chisel in (bevel down) fairly deep, then literally pulling the chisel back up just a hair (you can't break a huge chip off at the point of the cut, but if you pull the chisel up a 16th or so, you can strip a large chip from the sides of the mortise pretty easily) and rotating. The thickness of the chisel allows for a generous amount of rotation.

This is sort of crude compared to the more standard method of taking equal incremental shavings off of a mortise and has mostly to do with dealing with the ends of a mortise - this will make sense if one uses these bevel down as they'll cut at an angle equal to the bevel angle. Cutting across end grain at an angle is always easier than cutting directly across, and it preserves the ability to rotate the chisel at the bottom of the cut to sever any waste near the bottom. but it leaves you with two triangles to clear. The round part at the top of these chisels always you to move the chisel a little more easily - if it's sharp, they don't move in a deep mortise easily.

I have never read what I posted here - I figured it out and it helps illustrate why these chisels are often used little - a mortise has to be deep enough so that appreciable work is done with the rounded top of the bevel below the top of the cut. Otherwise, it doesn't do anything. The long bevel on these chisels is a product of the thickness of the chisel, which means you're really not getting into any advantages with them until the whole bevel is comfortably in a mortise.

Mine came with a crude secondary bevel on the tip of the chisel. It's my opinion after using them that the reason for that in the original laminated chisels is to eliminate riding a wrought iron bevel against wood end grain (lots of friction) so that only a small part of the chisel is in contact with the mortise. This is, again, a matter of effort and efficiency. Something that doesn't matter in sellers-jacobean woodworking, but would've been a big deal when you were doing bulk work with these instead of using a mortising machine.

The secondary bevel is crude and often not even square, I guess, because it was applied quickly by someone at a grinding wheel.

The fact that these things have to "go deep" to really get usefulness out of their ability to break out big chips bevel down (at the bottom of a mortise) means that there's not going to be that many instances where they're useful above and beyond a sash mortise type chisel or a smaller socketed chisel with a tall cross section and a little taper.

The tapered width on them also helps a lot in deeper mortises if you're being a little inaccurate.

I was only told later (when I mentioned friction) that some of the old texts talk about experimenting with oils and fats on the bevel - never tried it. If you're making a lot of beds or something where you'll have a one pass mortise that's deep, then these things suddenly become useful. if you're making cabinet mortises, probably not, and if you're making mortises that are deep and wide, it's probably far more productive to cut two narrow mortises and then remove the center with a regular chisel, or cut one and then work from left to right or right to left, or remove most of the waste with a turn screw and then pare the walls.

 

[D_W]

if anyone is wondering why I'd figure all of this stuff out? I make tools. If you want to make good tools, sometimes it's nice to figure out why they were made a certain way rather than guessing. In the case of something like pigstickers, the answer is usually disappointing (that they have a pretty narrow application - which also explains why a lot of them are floating around with the factory primary bevel still on them, or as with my set, 3 of the five carefully made and marked by the user, and then never used. )

The other thing interesting about this is when I started making chisels, I wanted to make good bench chisels, because people actually use those. Somewhere around half of the emails that I've gotten are:
" can you make me a set of paring chisels?"
" when are you going to make pigstickers?"

I can make both. I've made some of the former. I've never bothered to make the latter because I seriously doubt anyone will ever be doing the narrow range of work that they're good for by hand in volume, and I'm not lighting the forge to make chisels for (no more than) the cost of materials when they're not going to be used. I already gnash my teeth a little bit when making parers and generally only make them for people I consider good friends. Not because most people wouldn't love to have them - it's that I don't have any desire to make tools that are going to be display items. Pigstickers are destined for all but a few people in each country to be display items.

http://www.woodcentral.com/woodwork...ad/id/503494/sbj/david-weaver-paring-chisels/
There's a parallel here, too - and maybe that's that both of these types of chisels in their finest iteration aren't parallel. The work is ground by hand and eye - that makes pigstickers a good choice for someone who freehand grinds like I do, and hand finishes (I used the picture in that thread to show what my parers look like because the poster takes pictures in better light than I could ever hope to).

 

[Jacob]

Unstoppable!
Too long to read, I'd run out of pop-corn.
I glanced some confused comments about rounded bevels.

If you look at a lock mortice chisel you see the chisel itself is rounded. This is to give that extra leverage of the "moving fulcrum" when you are clearing out the most difficult bit i.e. the corners and the bottom of a deep mortice. Even mentioned in Salaman!
Having a rounded bevel on a normal mortice chisel helps you do the same in a blind mortice - you get the pointy end hard into a corner with the bevel against the wall, then lever it against the wall. You get more leverage than you would with a straight bevel.
This is the principle of the claw hammer, prise bar, pick axe, nail puller, various other curved cutting/levering devices which would not work nearly as well if they were straight, without the curve.
You don't have to have a rounded bevel on a mortice chisel but it is useful, and it's easier to sharpen. You don't need one in a through mortice.
Hope that helps!

The aforementioned morticing stool is mentioned in Ellis and there's a drawing. Not an essential if you have a spare saw horse.
Just popping out for more pop-corn will be back shortly!

 

[D_W]

i'm not sure if this is too advanced to say jacob - you are talking about a different chisel.

the pigstickers aren't lock mortise chisels, and they're not claw hammers. If you want to explain how something works and why it was made a certain way, it does nobody any good to tell us how a pigsticker works because a clawhammer is made with a curve.

so, today's advanced concept - lock mortise chisels and oval bolstered mortise chisels - not the same thing or there wouldn't be two different names.

 

[Jacob]

i'm not sure if this is too advanced to say jacob - you are talking about a different chisel.

Yes. Well spotted

the pigstickers aren't lock mortise chisels, and they're not claw hammers.

Spot on full marks!

If you want to explain how something works and why it was made a certain way, it does nobody any good to tell us how a pigsticker works because a clawhammer is made with a curve.

I think you have lost it here - the point is there are similarities. The basic feature being the "moving fulcrum" of a curved lever

so, today's advanced concept - lock mortise chisels and oval bolstered mortise chisels - not the same thing or there wouldn't be two different names.

Really? Well blow me down it's obvious when you point it out!

Seriously though - don't worry if you just don't get it - it doesn't matter and we've wasted enough popcorn already.

 

[D_W]

I don't have trouble getting it. I make tools. I cut as many mortises by hand (hundreds) as a hobbyist as you have as a professional, at least based on what you claim. None of those were lock mortises.

I see the value having learned to understand tool design and understand why similar tools are somewhat different. if a rounded bevel is what people wanted on oval bolstered chisels, they would've ground them rounded (it would've been easier). If a steep flat single bevel was wanted, they would've done that, it would've been easier. If they wanted to make the handles round, they would've done that. It would've been easier.

But they didn't.

It really doesn't make a difference what paul sellers said or what a chippie who started in the 1940s or 1930s may have told you - oval bolstered chisels were outdated by then. I'm sure there were still people using lock mortise chisels. You can be the expert on those - just overlaying them on oval bolstered chisels is misleading to people. the rotation happens at the top of the bevel, not through the thickness of it.

 

[Jacob]

....

But they didn't.

....

But they did, and still do, if they want to.

 

[D_W]

who still makes pigstickers?

the only explanation I ever saw for the profile (which iles put on some and not others) was that the rounding wouldn't bruise the edges of a mortise. That seems to be off the mark to me - it's a short time that the chisel is working at a depth where that would matter and it'll still smash the ends of a mortise, rounded or not.

tiny, steep bevel, long flat bevel, rounding at the top. Done on all of the quality chisels I've seen from the factory except for the marples catalog (those showed a long flat bevel).

once the chisels have been used an inch, what a user leaves on them could be anything. They are also like parers in the sense that finding some that are unused or close to unused isn't difficult. I found a ward parer last year that never had any work on the back and the bevel was the factory bevel. Someone had a use for it about five times.

I rarely find late 1800s-ish bench chisels that are full length.

 

[Jacob]

who still makes pigstickers?

the only explanation I ever saw for the profile (which iles put on some and not others) was that the rounding wouldn't bruise the edges of a mortise. .....

Well, now you have another explanation.