Getting an Old Pigsticker Ready for Work

[D_W]

for anyone else here where this talk of rotation depth doesn't make much sense, when you use a mortise chisel bevel down, it doesn't rotate properly until the top of the bevel has sunk below the surface.

https://williammarplesandsons.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/0368213edb6f82fc242fd3935a3304ae.jpeg
take a look at this picture. the bevel on the sash mortise chisel is sunk within about 3/8-1/2 inch of depth.

Look at the pigsticker. the top of the bevel doesn't get into the wood until you're well over an inch into the mortise. You can't rotate at a mortise end without bruising the top of a mortise until the top of the chisel is against the side of a mortise somewhere below the top. You can do that quickly with the sash mortise chisel, but not with the pigsticker.

however, once you get much deeper, the height of the pigsticker allows a much longer throw of rotation (especially if you're close to ends) and you have to rotate the chisel when it's bevel down awfully far to get the top of the chisel to hit the end of the mortise and bruise it (which may not matter, anyway).

the rotation will go at least the thickness of the chisel (the pigsticker is much taller) so needing to rotate that far in teh first place is unlikely.

but the chisel has to be deep before this matters.

how do you get a good view at how valuable this is? Cut a mortise 4.5x3 or so with a firmer and then cut one with a pigsticker. See how it goes cleaning out the ends. More thickness means you can take thick squarish chunks on the corners instead of taking progressive thin strips. If you had a job where you cut deep square bottom mortises regularly, it would make a big difference, but when you get to big mortises, too big and drilling and paring because more useful. Too small, and the advantage of the long tall bevel is lost.

Interestingly, marples always shows a perfectly flat straight line on their chisels in the catalogs. I think they made them that way. Ward and I.H. Sorby definitely did not.

 

[Jacob]

for anyone else here where this talk of rotation depth doesn't make much sense, .....

You are the only person here talking of "rotation depth" and yes I agree it doesn't make much sense, in fact I have no idea what you are talking about.
Try getting it down to 200 words. If you can't say it simply it's probably nonsense.

 

[TomB]

Have you two ever thought about going on a date together?


Somewhere secluded.

 

[D_W]

You are the only person here talking of "rotation depth" and yes I agree it doesn't make much sense, in fact I have no idea what you are talking about.
Try getting it down to 200 words. If you can't say it simply it's probably nonsense.

think one layer deeper if you can. bevel against the stock to be cut, chisel straight up and down. Hammer the chisel to depth. Lift chisel about 1/16th (this is a fraction of a second, like a reflex), push chisel forward and the chisel rotates on the rounded part at the top of the bevel severing and lifting all waste. If you worried about severing chips, tip the chisel back first, then rotate forward. Fair chance that you will be able to pull the chisel out with the entire chip on it and fling the chip away. next.

Once you get to the ends, the chips get shorter in height (and thicker) and you angle the chisel, pull back, lift slightly push forward and you hear a pop as the waste is broken free from the side of the mortise. Once again, either dump the waste into the open area or pull the chisel out and fling out the waste.

rotation depth refers to the chisel needing to be deep enough in wood for this so that the rounded part is below the top of the mortise. the virtue of the rounding is the chisel can be deep in a mortise and not get stuck. If the bevel is totally flat and sharp at both ends, the chisel chips and the top of the chisel cannot be moved where it rotates easily. if it's stuck hard in stock, then you're encouraged to either pull harder to pull the chisel up (which is an unhealthy habit) or just keep levering harder, snapping the tip off of the chisel.

the entire bevel isn't rounded or it forces a steeper cut from vertical.

there is one very easy way to see the benefit of this - actual experience. not talking about lock mortise chisels. Not talking about buying a mortising machine. Actually using tools. You said hundreds of mortises. I cut well over 100 just in my kitchen cabinet face frames. No drilling, no goofiness, just mortising.

 

[D_W]

Have you two ever thought about going on a date together?


Somewhere secluded.

No thanks, I don't need to hear "common sense" from someone talking about things they haven't done.

 

[Jacob]

think one layer deeper if you can. bevel against the stock to be cut, chisel straight up and down. Hammer the chisel to depth. Lift chisel about 1/16th (this is a fraction of a second, like a reflex), push chisel forward and the chisel rotates on the rounded part at the top of the bevel severing and lifting all waste. If you worried about severing chips, tip the chisel back first, then rotate forward. Fair chance that you will be able to pull the chisel out with the entire chip on it and fling the chip away. next.

Once you get to the ends, the chips get shorter in height (and thicker) and you angle the chisel, pull back, lift slightly push forward and you hear a pop as the waste is broken free from the side of the mortise. Once again, either dump the waste into the open area or pull the chisel out and fling out the waste.

rotation depth refers to the chisel needing to be deep enough in wood for this so that the rounded part is below the top of the mortise. the virtue of the rounding is the chisel can be deep in a mortise and not get stuck. If the bevel is totally flat and sharp at both ends, the chisel chips and the top of the chisel cannot be moved where it rotates easily. if it's stuck hard in stock, then you're encouraged to either pull harder to pull the chisel up (which is an unhealthy habit) or just keep levering harder, snapping the tip off of the chisel.

the entire bevel isn't rounded or it forces a steeper cut from vertical.

there is one very easy way to see the benefit of this - actual experience. not talking about lock mortise chisels. Not talking about buying a mortising machine. Actually using tools. You said hundreds of mortises. I cut well over 100 just in my kitchen cabinet face frames. No drilling, no goofiness, just mortising.

Sorry no it makes no sense. Try 200 words or a diagram?

 

[Lefley]

I love two different opinions. You usually end up with the right answers. I’m so guilty of not listening to the other person. They are usually saying what I’m saying just a different way that I can’t see. Or they are from a different generation using new techniques that outdated my tools that work perfect for me but not for them. But I do seem to find when a person resorts to not trying to show how there way is right or better in a technical methodical way, but instead resort to cutting up the other persons ways. They usually have run out of ways to prove there version of events and just try and grey the conversation, by trying to make the other look bad. Just my 2 cents. ( hey we don’t even have penny’s in Canada any more)

 

[Jacob]

Well it's wet n windy Friday evening so I thought I'd waste a bit of time and keep my hand in with a morticing demo. Doing this for my website so giving it an outing here too.
Here's the kit. Assorted mallets, mortice gauge, chisel (1/2" Joseph Haywood), piece of beech is a drift made to the exact size of the proposed tenons (1/2" x 2" in this case)

Done first would be mark up for the whole job in hand on every component 100% - never miss a mark - that's where you will make a mistake!
Just face and edge here.
n.b. face and edge marks need to be big, bold and joined up, so if part of it is removed by rebating, moulding etc, you can still work out clearly what's what. Sometimes they are done as feeble little squiggles, which is a mistake.

Start anywhere might as well be the middle. Easiest sitting astride on a saw horse - you can use a heavier mallet, comfortable efficient working position and it's very well clamped between your cheeks.

However for this purpose I'll do it on the bench to save hopping on and off between photos. Means a lighter mallet. Workpiece just sitting on bench, best not clamped or marks may be picked up. Here have made a few chops and moved face forwards just short of the end, a clean cut to be made very last thing.

Turned and gone face forwards to the other end

Quite a deep hole already, seems slow at first but rapidly speeds up. No need to lever anything or scrabble about

Turn and work back to other end

Turn again, bevel disappearing must be about half way through

This chisel bevel was reground recently so isn't particularly rounded. It would be eventually, after a lot of freehand sharpenings. If I wanted to a do a lot of blind mortices with it I might grind it rounder on purpose.


End of part one (10 images)

 

[Jacob]

Part 2!

At this point turn other side up and repeat the process. Resting over 2 bench hooks so that chippings fall away without marking the underside.

Clean cut to the line. Good moment to quick hone the edge for a clean line

Right through now, chippings falling out underneath

At this point bring on the drift. Take off arrises or they might break out the edge of the hole on the far side

And thats it job done!

The ergonomics are important it's very hard work - you might be at it all day on a big project. The sitting down really helps - easier to wield a heavy mallet. One trick is to keep your elbow in tight to your side and just move your forearm - you start to look and feel like a morticing machine!
No levering needed at any point, except the little wiggle to loosen the chisel.
The mortices will be precise - as per the chisel. It's essential to make the tenons a good fit to match with just a push fit, and exploit that precision. If you are a bit slack here you can give yourself a lot of work!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

No reason not to use a lump hammer instead of a huge mallet.

 

[D_W]

No reason not to use a lump hammer instead of a huge mallet.

Is a lump hammer by definition metal? if it is, go over the face with a belt sander quickly before using it on a wooden handle. Relatively small dings on the face of a steel hammer can totally shred wooden handles by progressively separating fibers.

I am offering this just as an opinion as I like to make chisels (even parers) that can be struck with a metal hammer if someone wants to. if someone would strike the parers pictured earlier in this thread in the course of regular malleting work and damage them, then something is wrong. Not because they should be used that way, but because there's no reason the characteristics that make an excellent parer (which include a stout tang so that the spring is further down the blade) shouldn't tolerate malleting.

That said, I would guess that the mortise chisels in the "old days" with wooden handles were struck by a mallet similar in hardness to the handles so as not to shock and delaminate the wood (the wood runs in the direction of the bolster and has no hoops to protect it from moving laterally). Using a mallet much harder than the handle is another cause of shock. So you end up with a fat mallet of something slightly harder than ash and beech (whatever is available) and the fatness (and lack of desire for wearing out your forearm before lunch) means a short handle.

I think you guys use the term lump hammer for what we call an engineer's hammer here. Regular claw hammer length and weight can be anything from 2-5 pounds (3 is typical). Some people call them "mini sledge".

On to the short handle with a heavier mallet - I've only ever seen one person really going to work who was a day in and day out pro doing big mortises. A daimaker named Hisao. A video of him on a maybe-gone youtube video showed him mortising japanese plane bodies made from macassar ebony with a 6 pound steel mallet. The handle was very short. I doubt anyone here could swing it (I sure couldn't). The proportions are useful for us to think about because maybe his 6 pound hammer is our 2. Short handle, heavy head, relatively large hitting surface. The difference was he was using a chisel that was hooped and made for a steel hammer.

 

[D_W]

Jacob - I really have no idea why someone would use an oval bolstered chisel for such a small mortise as you showed. That's part of the point here. I also have no clue why someone would think a chisel so tall in cross section would be good both for a small mortise and with the bevel pointed toward the waste side.

You don't realize it and will never admit it, but your illustration is proving my point about the fairly narrow application of these chisels. Is I mentioned earlier, think mortises on very large furniture (like mortised bed parts where the mortise might be 2 1/2 inches deep and 4 1/2 inches wide). In smaller mortises, there's no room for the chisel to work and a firmer is far less effort.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I believe I saw it done by R. Maguire, and as was pointed out the cause of damage in most cases from using hammers is that the faces are too small and damage wooden handles - with the size of lump/club hammers it doesn't happen.

 

[Jacob]

No reason not to use a lump hammer instead of a huge mallet.

Lump hammer too heavy.
Less likely to hit your hand with a mallet (bigger head for equivalent weight). Anyway if you hit it too hard it just makes it harder to pull out. Striking a happy medium!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

In smaller mortises, there's no room for the chisel to work and a firmer is far less effort.

Or a sash mortice chisel?

 

[Jacob]

Jacob - I really have no idea why someone would use an oval bolstered chisel for such a small mortise as you showed. .....,,the fairly narrow application of these chisels......

Well it's fairly obvious - it's a 1/2" mortice and it's a 1/2" mortice chisel. A lucky coincidence? In fact a 1/2" mortice is precisely "the fairly narrow application of these chisels" i.e. 1/2" mortice chisels. It's not really a coincidence!
Would a diagram help?

In smaller mortises, there's no room for the chisel to work and a firmer is far less effort.

A 1/2" chisel fits very neatly into a 1/2" mortice.
You really do not know what you are talking about do you? It shows and it is really tedious.
n.b. a "sash" mortice chisel is intended for sash (window) mortices and similar. i.e a squarish mortice such as you might find in a window. They are made unrelieved for a functional reason - to ensure that the sides are square to the cut face.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Lump hammer too heavy.

I have a 2lb lump hammer and a mallet that's heavier.

 

[D_W]

In smaller mortises, there's no room for the chisel to work and a firmer is far less effort.

Or a sash mortice chisel?

Sash mortise chisels are OK, but firmers often have sides relieved a little bit. If a sash mortise chisel also has relieved sides, then it's decent for small mortises with some depth. I have had sash mortises that are dead square with no trapezoidal profile, though, and once mortises get to a certain depth if you do accurate work, the chisel gets very tight in the mortise - it's obnoxious and it breaks rhythm.

 

[Jacob]

I have a 2lb lump hammer and a mallet that's heavier.

Congratulations!

 

[D_W]

View attachment 131347

I believe I saw it done by R. Maguire, and as was pointed out the cause of damage in most cases from using hammers is that the faces are too small and damage wooden handles - with the size of lump/club hammers it doesn't happen.

Yes - just be relatively religious about making sure that the lumper doesn't run into something harder, take face damage and then chew up wooden handles.

I forge things here and there and also use steel hammers. Once faces are in good shape, it's easy to keep them that way and a steel hammer suddenly isn't that hard on wood. But I do get the sense that without a hoop, you may be making oval bolster handles more often than....but wait..

...I did also say you won't have the opportunity to use them often as a means of the best tool for the job (that part is definitely true). It may not make a difference, and making handles for chisels isn't a bad thing to be in the habit of here and there so as to avoid the idea that tools are precious vs. able to be used and repaired when damaged.

2 pounds is probably about right for a large oval bolstered chisel (one with significant width) and the short handle is nice for the cause (no handle end slapping around). Having forged four or five chisels at a time with a 2 1/2 pound hammer, I would like to see the person who uses a 3-4 pound hammer for a long duration and honestly says it doesn't leave them with a completely gassed out shoulder.

The way hisao swing a 6 pound hammer was astonishing. like it was routine work. The rate that he excavated macassar ebony from a blank was equally mind boggling - it would be very hard to duplicate.