german planes

[lurcher]

hi do any of you have any experience of the german type of planes the 1s with the front horns on .
i have got a collection of 6 now and well i can say that they do perform very well for me .
well today i needed to shoot some 14" wide boards so used 1 of my german type as it is made of wood i could make it a true 90
to the sole alot better than a cast steel also the sides are much thicker so giving more surface to the shooting board.
also i used 1 to do the smoothing and i am very impressed with them .

 

[Phil Pascoe]

You don't need the sole and the side to be at 90 degrees, just the side and the cutting edge.

 

[Corneel]

Yes, I have a few too. They were sold and even made overhere in The Netherlands a lot. My favorite is the Ulmia smoother with lignum vitae sole. That plane is a miracle :lol:

I prefer to have a shooting plane with the relevant side at 90 degrees. You can of course compensate with the later adjustment, but everything is just easier when it is square to start with.

 

[Jacob]

I've got the ECE scrub which is brilliant. Had to open the mouth a bit for max effect.
Have also a similar (wider) single iron "jack" which is basically a finer scrubber.
But my favourite is an old home made scrub from a cabinet makers collection which is the only native scrub plane I've ever seen (i.e. old and in use before they became fashionable)

 

[bugbear]

I've got the ECE scrub which is brilliant. Had to open the mouth a bit for max effect.
Have also a similar (wider) single iron "jack" which is basically a finer scrubber.
But my favourite is an old home made scrub from a cabinet makers collection which is the only native scrub plane I've ever seen (i.e. old and in use before they became fashionable)

Why not just use a Bailey #5 with blade skewed? With a good tilt you get a wedge shaped deep shaving - and bingo you have a scrub plane.

BugBear

 

[pedder]

If you do a lot of scrubbing, it is easier with a leighter plane. These tools were made for workers who scrubed the hole day.

Cheers
Pedder

 

[Jacob]

I've got the ECE scrub which is brilliant. Had to open the mouth a bit for max effect.
Have also a similar (wider) single iron "jack" which is basically a finer scrubber.
But my favourite is an old home made scrub from a cabinet makers collection which is the only native scrub plane I've ever seen (i.e. old and in use before they became fashionable)

Why not just use a Bailey #5 with blade skewed? With a good tilt you get a wedge shaped deep shaving - and bingo you have a scrub plane.

BugBear

A good idea (mine I think - you've been in the archive again!) but the proper scrubber is better, both the cut and the light weight.

 

[MIGNAL]

I have an ECE, with the Hornbeam sole and wedge. I bought it from German Ebay but the blade must have been badly overheated. I never did get it back to good metal. It's the double iron version with the abutments that swivel. I had to fit it with a very good old Sheffield blade.
At one time I had the very fancy ECE Primus, with all it's fancy adjustments. Crikey! What an obstacle course whenever one wanted to do the simple task of sharpening a blade! Must be one of the worst designs I have ever had the misfortune of coming across. I sold it. Seriously, the simple wedge is a far better concept.

 

[Noggsy]

I've got an Ulmia smoother and I love it. Very smooth moving over the wood and easy to adjust.

 

[AndyT]

I have an ECE, with the Hornbeam sole and wedge. I bought it from German Ebay but the blade must have been badly overheated. I never did get it back to good metal. It's the double iron version with the abutments that swivel. I had to fit it with a very good old Sheffield blade.

Snap!

Shown here taking a light pass to remove old French polish. I used it again recently on an idigbo barge board where it was nice and light to use.
Further proof that just putting a horn shaped handle on a plane doesn't mean it can only do coarse work. Original blade performing nicely.

 

[bugbear]

A good idea (mine I think - you've been in the archive again!) but the proper scrubber is better, both the cut and the light weight.

Indeed. Unsurprisingly, dedicated designs to tend to perform their task better.

BugBear

 

[JohnPW]

I've got this massive German rebate plane, 440mm long, with a skewed iron.

 

[Trafalgar]

I've got the ECE scrub which is brilliant. Had to open the mouth a bit for max effect.
Have also a similar (wider) single iron "jack" which is basically a finer scrubber.
But my favourite is an old home made scrub from a cabinet makers collection which is the only native scrub plane I've ever seen (i.e. old and in use before they became fashionable)

Why not just use a Bailey #5 with blade skewed? With a good tilt you get a wedge shaped deep shaving - and bingo you have a scrub plane.

BugBear

Percy Wells and John Hooper in Modern Cabinet Work describe the handiness of having a 'Bismarck' roughing plane in one's kit which by description is clearly a horned scrub plane; there is a line drawing too I believe. If precedence is needed in the British tradition, then, there you have it.

 

[Trafalgar]

I have an ECE, with the Hornbeam sole and wedge. I bought it from German Ebay but the blade must have been badly overheated. I never did get it back to good metal. It's the double iron version with the abutments that swivel. I had to fit it with a very good old Sheffield blade.

Snap!

Shown here taking a light pass to remove old French polish. I used it again recently on an idigbo barge board where it was nice and light to use.
Further proof that just putting a horn shaped handle on a plane doesn't mean it can only do coarse work. Original blade performing nicely.

Nice bench, can you post photos of it if you have time?

 

[bugbear]

Percy Wells and John Hooper in Modern Cabinet Work describe the handiness of having a 'Bismarck' roughing plane in one's kit which by description is clearly a horned scrub plane; there is a line drawing too I believe. If precedence is needed in the British tradition, then, there you have it.

Or it might just be a jack; this Melhuish catalogue caused me to take pause and consider:

post725105.html?hilit=scrub%20textual#p725105

BugBear

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I've got the ECE scrub which is brilliant. Had to open the mouth a bit for max effect.
Have also a similar (wider) single iron "jack" which is basically a finer scrubber.
But my favourite is an old home made scrub from a cabinet makers collection which is the only native scrub plane I've ever seen (i.e. old and in use before they became fashionable)

Why not just use a Bailey #5 with blade skewed? With a good tilt you get a wedge shaped deep shaving - and bingo you have a scrub plane.

BugBear

A good idea (mine I think - you've been in the archive again!) but the proper scrubber is better, both the cut and the light weight.

From 'Hand Tools - Their Ways and Working' by Aldren A. Watson (pub. 1982), page 246 - "To remove a lot of wood in a hurry, set the cutter askew." There is a drawing of a 9" Bailey-type smoothing plane being used across grain with the lateral setting full to one side, leaving deep tram-lines diagonally across the board.

I'm not sure it would be my solution of choice - not quite as good as a 'proper' jack - but if only a very limited selection of planes is to hand, it's a dodge worth knowing.

 

[AndyT]

Nice bench, can you post photos of it if you have time?

Thanks! I will try and do a separate thread some time soon, but just at the moment my workshop has a lot of wood in it which is normally stored elsewhere and so although I can manage close-ups, I can't actually see across the room or take good pictures. The bench is strictly utilitarian but may help encourage others by its simplicity. Meanwhile there must be some views of it in earlier posts of mine!

 

[Jacob]

......

Why not just use a Bailey #5 with blade skewed? With a good tilt you get a wedge shaped deep shaving - and bingo you have a scrub plane.

BugBear

A good idea (mine I think - you've been in the archive again!) but the proper scrubber is better, both the cut and the light weight.

From 'Hand Tools - Their Ways and Working' by Aldren A. Watson (pub. 1982), page 246 - "To remove a lot of wood in a hurry, set the cutter askew." There is a drawing of a 9" Bailey-type smoothing plane being used across grain with the lateral setting full to one side, leaving deep tram-lines diagonally across the board.

I'm not sure it would be my solution of choice - not quite as good as a 'proper' jack - but if only a very limited selection of planes is to hand, it's a dodge worth knowing.

There you go then - I didn't imagine I was the first person to think of it!
It's not a substitute for a jack but is an alternative to a scrub i.e. a way of removing a lot of material fast - deep and narrow removes more material than shallow and wide, given the same amount of effort. In theory the nearer you get to a semi circular trough the faster the rate of removal.

 

[bugbear]

In theory the nearer you get to a semi circular trough the faster the rate of removal.

And yet actual evolved-over-time scrubs don't remove semi circles. I think that theory is (at best) unproven. Where did you see it, or did you make it up yourself?

What's the reasoning and/or evidence?

BugBear

 

[Trafalgar]

Percy Wells and John Hooper in Modern Cabinet Work describe the handiness of having a 'Bismarck' roughing plane in one's kit which by description is clearly a horned scrub plane; there is a line drawing too I believe. If precedence is needed in the British tradition, then, there you have it.

Or it might just be a jack; this Melhuish catalogue caused me to take pause and consider:

post725105.html?hilit=scrub%20textual#p725105

BugBear

The line drawing on the plate on page 8 of the Wells book shows essentially the old Ulmia scrub plane. The horn is the typical one found on ECE and Ulmia planes and not the turned handle of the illustration in Melhuish. They were referring to a German plane.

FWIW, there is a line drawing of a typical English jack plane found on the same plate.