Gas Central Heating Boiler fault. Lucky house is not on fire.

[Jonm]

The attached video is my daughters/son in laws gas boiler. It is a Worcester green star, fully serviced. The interesting bit is towards the end of the video. It is well worth watching, only 26 seconds.

 

[baldkev]

Im assuming its a gas plumber doing the work? The cover forms part of the boiler works because of the black seal running around it and i think its illegal to remove it if you are not gas registered.

My cover is decorative and legal to remove

 

[MARK.B.]

Switch it off and call in the pro's

 

[Jonm]

Looking at the above comments I will give a longer explanation. Boiler was making an odd sound. They contacted their normal service engineer who is isolating with Covid. They have emergency cover as part of their house insurance and contacted them and an emergency plumber was sent out. So yes it is a gas plumber who is doing the work. The current position is that the gas board have been called out and the gas shut off to the whole house so they have lost the gas fire and cooker as well.

Just sorting out repair or replace boiler. The service engineer said he had seen nothing like it.

 

[Jameshow]

"so it's not meant to do that ...!

 

[Stevekane]

Why did they shut off the gas supply? the boiler has an isolation valve and leaving them with no means of cooking or keeping warm seems to be making a bad situation even worse!
Steve.

 

[Jonm]

Why did they shut off the gas supply? the boiler has an isolation valve and leaving them with no means of cooking or keeping warm seems to be making a bad situation even worse!
Steve.

I agree and I thought the same thing. I am not sure why. Seems like the nanny state to me, does not trust people in their own homes to act responsibly. They were told, very sorry but that is the procedure. When a gas safe engineer and the gas board say the supply has to be turned off for safety reasons then most people would accept it.

Here is a link https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/m...ituations-procedure-april-2018-amendments.pdf
Para 6.1 seems to be saying that the appliance has to be disconnected or gas supply turned off.

Perhaps someone on here can shed some light on this. Perhaps it is a case that the gas board cannot supply a property, knowing it contains a faulty appliance which is connected but turned off, which begs the question, why didn’t the plumber just disconnect the boiler and blank off the pipe., as stated in 6.1(b) in the above document.

I remember reading some years ago about gas engineers turning appliances off and taping them up as dangerous. Unscrupulous landlord, removes tape and switches appliance on and tenant dies. But we cannot base our procedures as if everyone is going to act illegally like this.

 

[user 35906]

The procedure when I left the industry after 42 years was if it is immediately dangerous it has to be disconnect so fitting a cap on the gas pipe at the appliance inlet would be good but in a lot of cases it is difficult to access the pipe to do this without causing some damage so the easiest way out is to turn the lot off and cap the meter. Couple of years ago my elderly 90 + year old neighbour was having his meters replaced and the guy that came said there was a small gas leak on the boiler and he was going to cut them off completely hob, fire and CH. He wasn't very keen when I said do the electric meter while I cap off the boiler and isolate the leak, later that day I replaced the gas valve for him.
It never happened to me but I understand that if the customer refused to have it disconnected they got the service provider to cap it off in the road.

 

[Ozi]

BRITISH GAS!!! Came to my house to fit a new boiler. When my wife told them the gas fire in the living room was not working decided that instead of following the existing pipe rout as had been agreed and quoted with the new larger diameter pipe, required for the more efficient boiler that burns less gas? They would disconnect the supply going to not just the fire that wasn't working but also the gas hob and another fire, then run the new pipe around the outside wall of the house to the boiler as "It's the only safe way to do it". The only fault on the gas fire - a flat battery. The new pipe was fed from a pipe of the original diameter, the new boiler inlet was the same diameter as the old one, it's a lower rated more efficient boiler and did indeed use less gas. They then wanted paying to reconnect the items they had disconnected! Came close to court action to get it put right.

More than 15 years and I'm still getting a good moan out of it - best value I've had in years.

 

[Stevekane]

Personally I like to keep some distance between us and the gas/elect board,,,reading the above just confirms my worst fears.
Smart meters are another area where people have found themselves unexpectedly disconnected and facing big repair/ replacement costs because the fitter has to do a safety check as part of the installation.
Steve.

 

[Spectric]

So what was the actual symptoms before any covers were removed apart from an odd sound? as has been said the outer decorative cover has been removed and then the inner sealed cover as well to gain access but modern boilers work on a balanced flue where no air from the interior of the building is used, air is drawn in through the flue and then discharged back out of the flue, and is monitored by a pressure differential sensor. This flow may be disrupted with the inner cover removed but your gas engineer should know if this is the case. Big question is why has your gas engineer not taken the heat exchanger out which is part of a full boiler service and inspected the seals, just a case of rotating the fan and manifold assembly so it can be lifted out and then the exchanger is accessible.

 

[Jonm]

Thank you for all the comments. I have spoken again with my son in law and apparently the boiler stopped about a week ago, he took advice and pushed a reset button and the boiler restarted and was ok for a few days. It then started making a sound and I have posted the video at the bottom.

Their normal service engineer Is isolating at home. They have an insurance policy so contacted them. They passed it on to another company who instructed the gas engineers. Gas engineer arrives, finds the problem, says it needs a new top plate, cannot locate the gas isolator to the boiler so calls in the gas board who isolates the supply.

The problems here are many. The gas engineer did not dismantle the boiler to find out what the problem actually is and what parts are actually required. The boiler is 16 years old so apparently the parts may not be available. They are now waiting for a response from Worcester to see if the ”top plate” is available. The policy will pay for the repair or if it is not economical a contribution towards the new boiler cost.

The frustrating thing is the lack of control and number of parties involved, insurance company, another company, gas engineers, gas board, Worcester. Seems a recipe for disaster.

I would be very surprised if there was a fault with the servicing. We have been using him for years and he is very good.

My son in law will not sit idly by and wait. There is an option to have another plumber fit a new boiler.

Here is a drawing of the heat exchanger

 

[clogs]

sounds like it's just burnt thru the steel plate etc....

Cant trust Brit Gas.....shame as there are some good engineers but it the application of the nanny state rules....
even heard it isn't that hard to get a gas certificate now...just a bit of schooling....
still it wont matter soon we'll be all electric......another disaster....hahaha....

 

[Fergie 307]

Round our way a while ago certain criminal elements hit on ripping out these external pipes, presumably to sell the pipe for scrap. Another bloody dangerous one was punching a hole in your petrol tank to nick the petrol. One of our neighbours came out in the morning to find her car sat in a small lake of petrol, they had presumably been disturbed and legged it before they could collect it.
A right old drama with Trumpton foaming away to make it all safe, and the poor lady has all the aggro and expense of getting it repaired.

 

[Ozi]

Round our way a while ago certain criminal elements hit on ripping out these external pipes, presumably to sell the pipe for scrap. Another bloody dangerous one was punching a hole in your petrol tank to nick the petrol. One of our neighbours came out in the morning to find her car sat in a small lake of petrol, they had presumably been disturbed and legged it before they could collect it.
A right old drama with Trumpton foaming away to make it all safe, and the poor lady has all the aggro and expense of getting it repaired.

Isn't it appalling how people will risk blowing someones house / car up for no more than £40. We desperately need a new law "Being a pain in the *** in the presence of the general public". No fixed penalty this is the first good use for reality TV, people send in suggested punishments for the miscreants on last weeks show, a panel of Judges vote on the most appropriate with the felon having the option as a safety net of ten years hard labor doing something useful possibly for the first time in their life. You heard it here first folks vote for me. My manifesto includes the promises not to ask you to pay to redecorate my house or build me a duck island.

 

[Jonm]

Isn't it appalling how people will risk blowing someones house / car up for no more than £40

Like stealing hazard road signs, put there to save lives.

 

[Spectric]

Big question is why has your gas engineer not taken the heat exchanger out which is part of a full boiler service and inspected the seals,

and with a boiler of that age, it is getting on at sixteen years old and then seeing this issue , why did he not just state that a new boiler is the way forward as that one is really not worth repairing being so old. it saves all the hassle and inconvenience to the customer. So you replace the top plate but the rest of that boiler is just as old and so what fails next, don't bother just replace for peace of mind. They do not use the heavy cast iron heat exchangers that were once the norm pre condensing boilers, but that boiler layout is still used by Worcester and if you use another 18Ri it will be just a case of swapping out as you should find the three pipes line up. One thing that is important with modern boilers is the pump overun and this is where there is no demand for heat and the zone valves close but the pump runs to prevent heat buildup in the boilers heat exchanger and kettling by moving water round a bypass loop, used to be a lockshield valve just cracked open, now a pressure device but having a longer run of pipe in the bypass can help the heat exchangers life, not much of an issue when the exchanger was a large lump of cast iron. In my system using a smart pump the bypass is controlled by a three way valve with a long bypass loop that warms up the airing cupboard so making use of otherwise wasted energy.

 

[Ozi]

Like stealing hazard road signs, put there to save lives.

Or the sons of fun who took all the road drain covers on the route I used to cycle to work

 

[Jonm]

and with a boiler of that age, it is getting on at sixteen years old and then seeing this issue , why did he not just state that a new boiler is the way forward as that one is really not worth repairing being so old. it saves all the hassle and inconvenience to the customer. So you replace the top plate but the rest of that boiler is just as old and so what fails next, don't bother just replace for peace of mind. They do not use the heavy cast iron heat exchangers that were once the norm pre condensing boilers, but that boiler layout is still used by Worcester and if you use another 18Ri it will be just a case of swapping out as you should find the three pipes line up. One thing that is important with modern boilers is the pump overun and this is where there is no demand for heat and the zone valves close but the pump runs to prevent heat buildup in the boilers heat exchanger and kettling by moving water round a bypass loop, used to be a lockshield valve just cracked open, now a pressure device but having a longer run of pipe in the bypass can help the heat exchangers life, not much of an issue when the exchanger was a large lump of cast iron. In my system using a smart pump the bypass is controlled by a three way valve with a long bypass loop that warms up the airing cupboard so making use of otherwise wasted energy.

All very true, but as I stated above this is an insurance claim.

The boiler is 16 years old so apparently the parts may not be available. They are now waiting for a response from Worcester to see if the ”top plate” is available. The policy will pay for the repair or if it is not economical a contribution towards the new boiler cos

So the insurance company will make the decision.

 

[Woody Alan]

" In my system using a smart pump the bypass is controlled by a three way valve with a long bypass loop that warms up the airing cupboard so making use of otherwise wasted energy."
Intresting I was thinking about doing this only the other day using a zone valve and came to the conclusion that it would have to fail open loop, didn't realise it was actually an approved method to solve the problem over pressure related bypass valves.