furniture making at university

[lurker]

I'm aware from remarks people have made that Sgian Dubh is a very good craftsman, highly knowledgable and a good teacher, however many University lecturers are not.

Not only that because they are not rubbing shoulders with the elite they get an over inflated impression of themselves. My company have a very high Engineering graduate intake and come across these folks all the time.
Certainly I could say that our Graduates are poorly taught in many instances, and that's not second hand experience.

 

[Smudger]

I run the Foundation Degree/ BA (Hons) in Furniture Making at Leeds College of Art and Design. I do not teach my students "crap" and the "wrong things". I probably have more practical experience of the furniture making business, and know more about the theory of the subject than you could possibly imagine.

Your posts in this thread are insulting. You can leave your posts where they are if you like, but they are ill-considered and rude. Slainte.

Do you fly off the handle & get on your high horse with your students too?

This sort of thing really gets on my nerves - I've had it on here as well - if you teach, then that will be used against you, and anything you say will be met with 'would you speak to your students that way?'. Well, yes, I would if they produced the rubbish that was brought into this thread, and so should you, instead of this sort of comment.
I can't speak for Leeds, but having worked on a university academic accreditation committee and been responsible for major national training initiatives I can assure you that quality is checked and striven for at all levels. Ofsted and internal procedures pretty soon find weaknesses.
And if you have engineering graduates who are know-alls, in what way does that prove that their lecturers are 'crap'?

 

[lurker]

Sorry I ruffled feathers.

I did say "some" - As, I believe did Shim.
Why take general comments personally??

You can't seriously suggest every lecturer & teacher is a paragon of virtue and I don't think I said the opposite

The Engineering graduates I work with are not knowalls (generally) its their lecturers that I meet when recruiting. Too many do not keep themselves up to date.

 

[MikeG.]

I consider that my Architecture Degree course was an exceptionally poor preparation for life in Architecture, tutored in part by a number of incompetent and mis-directed people (and by one or two completely wonderful people too). That doesn't give me the right to extrapolate beyond my immediate experience.

I will not ever be heard saying..........."all architecture courses are rubbish" or "all architecture lecturers and tutors are rubbish" or "all universities are a waste of time"...........because I have no evidence whatsoever to back any of that up.

Unfortunately, lack of evidence didn't stop Shim20 making wild assertions, nor did it stop Lurker from attacking a Uni head of department who defended his own department's performance. Lurker, just because some Engineering Graduates you have experience of may not be "Oven Ready"when they finish at Uni, doesn't mean you have any evidence that people are wasting their time on Furniture Making courses. It may be time for a sense of perspective on this.

Shim20, just because you didn't learn your trade at University doesn't mean there is no merit in the other approach. Indeed, your comments not only denigrate the countless University lecturers etc who run these and similar courses, but also the efforts of thousands of students who have worked their nuts off to get through their course.

I hope this thread can now return to encouraging a young chap in the right direction for his chosen career.........

Mike

 

[BradNaylor]

I would have loved to have done a furniture making degree at uni, and wish the OP the best of luck. As it was I did teacher training - in woodwork!

I am not convinced however, that such a course and qualification would necessarily equip one for the reality of life as a furniture maker. I suspect that many graduates emerge from college full of great ideas of making a terrific living as a high end 'designer-maker' like Richard.

Unfortunately the market for such products is very small, and the majority of cabinetmakers spend a high proportion of their time churning out MDF boxes and slapping doors on them.

Those not prepared to go down this route in pursuit of a good living tend to gravitate towards teaching!

An apprenticeship would in my view tend to offer a more rounded education in furniture making, topped up with specialist courses when appropriate.

Cheers
Dan

 

[shim20]

Do you fly off the handle & get on your high horse with your students too?

My response was hardly high horse material lurker; more like miniature pony stuff.

I merely pointed out the obvious; that the posts I objected to are insulting, ill-considered and rude.

I guess you consider the following quotation from the post I found bothersome to be complimentary, considered, and polite along with evidence of sophisticated critical analysis and reason developed through personal research, study and experience?

"yer you right, but also the tutors dont know what there on about most the time the talk a load of crap." Slainte.

as i said didnt aim that comment at anyone ie you, but take it as you like

 

[jhwbigley]

:shock: oh dear, i go out for one night and look at whats happened on here!

Sgian Dubh,
hello, im waiting for my prospectus form leeds, i have herd all but good about your furniture making course you run, what are you looking for in a proseptive student?

thanks

 

[jhwbigley]

[Those not prepared to go down this route in pursuit of a good living tend to gravitate towards teaching![/quote]

:wink: i was told to teach

 

[jhwbigley]

From what I've seen and read, university courses appear to be far more design-orientated than the type of college course that I'm enrolled on... A lot of the pieces I've seen fresh from uni students in the magazines often look (to me) innovative more than they are functional, if that makes sense.... I could be wrong, of course! :wink:

i did product design for A level, so i dont mind a design-orientated, but i still want to have my hands on the tools. i'd be in my workshop now if it was not such a long way from my house

 

[jhwbigley]

What is it you wish to do once you have completed your course? I ask because I did city and guilds at college in furniture making, then stayed on and did an ncfe advanced furniture making and design (distinction :wink: ) after which i could have gone to uni to do B.A hons but opted out because by this time i wanted to get to work. I think uni's are good but dont overlook college courses rather than uni, if you want to get into the industry you'll be no better off going for going to uni, but if its what you want to do then all the best to you.

I do think college can teach you things in an environment where mistakes are not cost worthy.

All the best whichever path you choose.

Rob

thanks Rob

i did think of colleges, but all of my local ones only do carpentry (wood butchering :wink: )

 

[Sgian Dubh]

what are you looking for in a proseptive student? thanks

Basically, with applicants straight from school we look for 5 GCSE's including English at grade C or above, plus two A levels.

Applicants 21 and over are mature students and essentially they have to convince me that they truly want to become furniture designers and makers. They also need to show they can probably handle the academic element of the course, eg, an ability to use and write in English at GCSE level 3 and above, but not necessarily have an English GCSE.

In both cases a strong portfolio of work demonstrating an interest in either, or both practical subjects and art and design subjects helps a lot.

Assessment of practical modules breaks down to approximately 60% to 70% of marks awarded to the artefact made, and 30% to 40% of the marks awarded against what is called the 'supporting documentation', eg, design development, working drawings, estimates, project management, and project report, etc.

In addition to practical modules you study design development modules, technical communication modules (technical drawing [AutoCAD]) timber technology, wood finishing, and critical studies (art and design history) and a personal and professional development module. Second year studies include a design and make project, a CNC module, batch and mass production, an exhibition piece, enterprise studies and a level 2 personal and professional development module.

Taught sessions amount to approximately 14- 15 hours per week, which you may think is not much; but the HE experience is very much about students setting their own targets, managing their time and meeting deadlines. There is a lot of self directed study and practice involved to do well on the course and, believe me, if you were taught five days a week for 6 hours a day it would be far too much teaching. You would be left with far too little time to do all the tasks you have to organise and execute in your own way.

Third year studies, if you choose to study for a BA (Hons), require you work on a professional practice module, write a 6000- 8000 word dissertation, a final major project module, and level 3 personal and professional development module. You propose your own areas of study in the third year in response to briefs.

The course has design content, rather than being design led. You design and make finished items in the main, as against going through a design exercise leading to the creation of models or mock-ups. The academic element of the course, eg, timber technology, gives you the theoretical knowledge to make intelligent choices about the materials you use in your furniture. Critical studies provides you with an understanding of the history of art and design and gives you a sense of who we are and where we are within the whole pantheon of the world of art and design.

For instance, I have probably forgotten more about timber technology than most professional woodworkers ever learn about the subject. I am sometimes taken aback by how poorly some of my fellow professional woodworkers understand the material they work with every day.

The course is hard work; you don't come on the course to simply walk out with a Foundation Degree or BA (Hons) in Furniture Making, you have to earn those qualifications. You are not spoon fed information. My job is a little bit like a chicken farmer. I open the gate of the chicken run, scatter corn about, and sit back and see which hens devour the corn, and which hens can't be bothered, go hungry and wither away.

I spent 30 years in the furniture making industry prior to getting involved with teaching the subject. I know my way around furniture design and making, and I know the woodworking industry intimately and in-depth.

Here is a link to some of the work of graduates from the course. As you will see, these students make real furniture. http://www.leeds-art.ac.uk/home/showcas ... g-gallery/ Slainte.

 

[wizer]

I'd absolutely love to do a course like that. However, I left school with no GCSE's and no direction in life, I did the easiest thing I knew and got lucky.

Based on the requirements I couldn't even get through the door.

In my experience in the area that I work in (IT) those that have been to uni often end up employed in an area that doesn't remotely relate to their degree. Also the vast majority of them are earning less than those of us who have been working since we were 17

I'm not knocking uni, I really would love to have done that. If I hadn't grown up and got a family, I'd sell everything I owned to change direction and seek out proper WW education. In fact I'm even considering doing my GCSE's.

You could spend 3 years as an apprentice learning on the job. But your exposure to the profession would be very narrow. You couldn't properly make up your mind where you wanted to place yourself in the industry.

 

[Ironballs]

And if I ever get round to finishing off my shaker style table you can see what the evening class students get up to - 3 hours a week over 30 weeks.

Also I'm not taking the mick here, but read what Sgian says about written English and also have a look at Dan Tovey's thread about getting business over the internet. I can guarantee that if he'd responded with misspelled words and poor grammar then his client would have been much less likely to shell out 2 grand to a stranger. So in other words, brush up on your written English as well :wink:

 

[Chris Knight]

Richard,

That's an interesting summary of the course content.

The photo gallery shows some very nice stuff and pleasing to me at least, designed for the real world rather than an art gallery. I reckon one should be well prepared to earn a living having completed a course there.

 

[wizer]

The photo gallery shows some very nice stuff and pleasing to me at least, designed for the real world rather than an art gallery. I reckon one should be well prepared to earn a living having completed a course there.

I was impressed by this

Simple but clever.

Its all very nice stuff, not like some of that wacky arty stuff

 

[eggflan]

I'd absolutely love to do a course like that. However, I left school with no GCSE's and no direction in life, I did the easiest thing I knew and got lucky.

Based on the requirements I couldn't even get through the door.

In my experience in the area that I work in (IT) those that have been to uni often end up employed in an area that doesn't remotely relate to their degree. Also the vast majority of them are earning less than those of us who have been working since we were 17

I'm not knocking uni, I really would love to have done that. If I hadn't grown up and got a family, I'd sell everything I owned to change direction and seek out proper WW education. In fact I'm even considering doing my GCSE's.

You could spend 3 years as an apprentice learning on the job. But your exposure to the profession would be very narrow. You couldn't properly make up your mind where you wanted to place yourself in the industry.

I could not agree more , hit the nail on the head with that quote 8)

 

[jhwbigley]

my first try at posting images, they may be off some use.

this is a barbilard score board, (less numbers) i made from oak and teak.

i built this run of cabinets for our garage kitchen, painted mdf, beach top and belfast sink, and tiles.

my A level final product, ipod speakers, not a very good photo , but i love turning

part of my workshop, (my dads is next door) i have only got my TS and RAS in the last year, and also have a router table.

my new workshop , only getting half of it

 

[Sgian Dubh]

my first try at posting images, they may be off some use.

Your creations indicate that you might be able to do well on a degree course. You have good technical abilities as demonstrated by your photographs. How well you learn would depend in part on your ability to cope with the academic side of a degree course, along with your creativity as a designer coupled with an ability to communicate your ideas to an audience. Lastly, how independent and organised are you? This is a strong factor that determines a successful student from a middling or low achieving student.

Having good making abilities alone does not necessarily mean good progress on a degree course. You need other qualities, eg, imagination, the ability to communicate effectively using visual communication- eg, drawings- and in the written form; the ability to do independent research, the determination to work through problems, etc. I have touched on some of these qualities already, but such skills are essential.

If your aim is to develop the ability to make to the designs of others and follow the directions on working drawings, a Higher Education degree course may not be for you. If you want a rounded education as a furniture maker and designer with proven ability to think divergently, critically, and analytically, and communicate at a high level, then a degree course might be just the ticket. Slainte.

 

[jhwbigley]

If you want a rounded education as a furniture maker and designer with proven ability to think divergently, critically, and analytically, and communicate at a high level, then a degree course might be just the ticket. Slainte.

just the sort of degree course im looking for!

 

[TheTiddles]

What's the obsession with calling everything a degree? Making furniture is not a degree, it's a very useful and worthwhile thing to do but you won't find it offered at a university that anyone would recognize. Every time a 'degree' is awarded from a 'university' it devalues the entire education system, hence the first question at every interview "what's your degree in and where is it from?", for each subject there are a handful of good schools and you need at least a 2.1, by the way, a spelling mistake and bad grammar on your CV invalidates you pretty fast too.

I'm 4 years out of university and I can't believe the rubbish trotted out by some 'graduates' with 'degrees' from the 'university of somewhere that didn't have one last year'. I would encourage anyone thinking about going to a university to check very carefully what the net output is, would a degree from this place put me ahead of someone who went and did the job for three years, both financially and practically? Further, the job doesn't finish when you get the certificate, it's only the beginning.

Aidan